Penrose Street

[seasider66]

Hiya what was John's job in 1911 ???


xx

Hello again,
John Moran was a General Labourer.....why?

Lil

[seasider66]

I've got a photo of Jane and Herbert, and wonder if it can be posted on here? Just so you can see who you've been looking for
Lil

[colette]

Hi
I was looking my 1911 directory as there are a few John Moran's listed but none a Labourer and none in that area..all of Jenkinson St isnt listed only a few numbers..normaly the directories are compiled a year before..so thought we may have gotton an address..were they could be in 1901..best bet is Herbert & Janes marriage cert 1903..for her address..Just can't work out why none of them are showing up at all in 1901, they should be in the area..

I checked 31 Jenkisnon St in 1901 and a totaly different family are there then.

Can't go back on Harriets side of the family till we have proof her maiden name was Brookes but it looks likely it was..

I have aske if anyine is going the records office would they mind looking up Esthers baptism 1890 at Christ Church Hunter St ..it may reveal Harriets surname.. fingers crossed..

xx

[colette]

Helloooo

found them in 1901

24 Mill Rd South Everton

Head John Moran age 40 Gen Labourer b Lpool
Wife Harriet age 37 b Lpool
Dau Jane Horton age 20 b Lpool
Son Harry Horton age 14 b Lpool
Dau Catherine Moran age 4 b Lpool
Dau Esther Moran age 2 b Lpool
Uncle Adam Melia age 54 b Lpool

This is why i could't find them birth places all Liverpool

So we now have

Henry Horton b c 1880 looked again in 1891 and hes deffo 11

Jane Horton b c 1881

Harry Horton b c 1887 cant see a birth reg for him

Rose Horton b 1889

Esther Horton b 1890

Catherine Moran b c1897

Esther Moran b c 1899 as shes 2 in 1901..there is one other Esther Moran born 1897 in Liverpool parnets Michael & Esther..so that birth reg could be hers.

William John Moran b 1903..

Cant see birth reg's for Harry/Harold/Henry 1887 under Horton..so Harriets maiden name is a must to find..theres nothing under brookes either..

xx

[seasider66]

Hi Colette,

You are so kind, thank you, it's much appreciated

How did you arrive at Herbert and Jane's marriage 1903? It's just that on the 1911 it says they had been married 5 years which would make it about 1906...oh dear not more confusion I hope Mind you I'm ready to believe anything at the moment
Harriet and J Moran lived at 31 Jenkinson St. and Jane and Herbert at 37 Jenkinson St on 1911 so I am now wondering, like you, where they were in 1901 It just gets more and more complex as we go along
I agree that Harriet's maiden name is very probably Brookes, but Jane's birth cert should tell us more. Got to wait a while for that though
Lil

[seasider66]

WOW, Colette, that's fantastic

Thank you so much for doing all that work

Mill Road sounds familiar to me, and I know my mum and I often visited Harriet and walked so it wasn't far. We lived at 8 Dawber Street, Liverpool 6 then, but I think it's now Dawber Place and all modern properties built there

How odd that Jane is shown as being born in Liverpool though, when all the previous indications have been that she was born Aston, Birmingham. Never mind, once the birth cert arrives I may be able to make some sense of it.

I need to go through all the info now and get it sorted in my mind before adding it to my tree.
Thanks again
Lil

[colette]

Sorry Lil it was 1905 the marriage

Marriages Dec 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALLDAY Gertrude Maude W. Derby 8b 573
BROOKES Jane Emily W. Derby 8b 573
HARTLEY Joseph Alexander W. Derby 8b 573
SIMPSON Herbert Christian W. Derby 8b 573

I am laughing here there are kids coming out the woodwork .. take no notice to it being said born in Liverpool.. i guess if you have been here a while you just say it..I have seen that so many times before..I also guess if you have that many kids and travel around a bit you can forget where they were all born...

By all accounts you would think Henry & Harriet would be in Manchester somewhere in 1881. I am thinking like you that Henry Horton Jr may have died.

xx

[colette]

St Augustine Everton

Banns: St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
Herbert Christian Simpson - Bachelor
Jane Emily Brookes - Spinster
First Reading: 3 Dec 1905; Read By: W J Adams
Second Reading: 10 Dec 1905; Read By: J Rostron
Third Reading: 17 Dec 1905; Read By: W J Adams
Register: Banns 1892 - 1910, Page 178, Entry 836
Source: LDS Film 2147907

Sadly the marriages only go upto 1896 online

But at leaat you know she was a spinster



xx

[seasider66]

Hello again,

I know exactly what you mean by just writing Liverpool as a matter of course. I've done it myself and created so much confusion I actually tore up everything I'd found and started all over again

At least we know Jane and Herbert were married and where and when, thanks to you

Talking of children...my maternal side gt.grandparents ended up having 14 children I had found 12 and then the 1911 revealed two more, but sadly 3 had died, one at 11 months from pneumonia

I feel the need to order some more certs now....the marriage cert first as that should confirm their respective parents.
My cousin is away so hasn't been able to help me yet. She will be surprised when I tell her about all this though
I'm off to bed now, but tomorrow I hope to try and sort all this info out and put it into some order...my mind is whirling and I can't take it all in.

Thanks again for all your dedication and hard work. If I could give you a medal I would
Goodnight and God blessxx
Lil

[colette]

Hiya Lil

Here we go found Hariet and baby Jane..

1881 34 Terrace Argyle St Sutton Coldfield Warks

Head Charles Brookes Wid age 49 Ag Labourer b Drayton Staffordshire
Son Charles age 19 b Sutton Coldfield Ag Labourer
Dau Harriett age 17 b Sutton...
Dau Sarah age 15 b Sutton
Grand Daughter Jane age 2 months b Birmingham.

1871 no street but by Moor Hill Lodge Sutton Coldfield

Head Charles Brookes age 39 b Drayton Staffs Ag Labourer
Wife Jane age 37 b Bentley Warks
Dau Jane age 10 b Drayton Staffs
Son Charles age 9 b Sutton..
Dau Harriet age 6 b Sutton
Dau Sarah A age 5 b Sutton
Dau Emily age 2 b Sutton

1861 158 Muffins Den Sutton..Coldfield

Head Charles Brookes age 28 Ag Lab... b Drayton Staffs
Wife Jane age 26 b Bentley
Dau Alice age 3 b Drayton
Dau Jane age 9 months b Drayton

marriage Charles Brookes - Jane Taylor Tamworth March 1857

Baptism Charles Brookes Drayton Bassett Staffs father William mother Hannah.

so you have your Jane named after Harriets mum and Emily after her little sister, who may have died as shes not there in 1881.

phewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Where naughty Henry is well he cant be far away, he must have been in the area to get Harriet pregnant..

As for Henry Horton Junior maybe they got his age wrong in 1891 and he should have been 4...or Henry had another Love child but not to Harriet, otherwise he would have been with her..

Maybe Henry ran off to Manchester when he got Harriet pregnant and Charles her dad was gunning for him haaaaaaaaaa.
He may have met and married someone else and had a son and his first wife died who knows...

XX

[colette]

Hiya

Harriets sister Sarah A married John Truelove arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr what a surname.. in 1889 Aston

in 1901 92 Grosvenor Rd Aston guess who turns up..Roseeeeeeeeeeee Horton

Head John Truelove age 36 Bricklayers Labourer b BHam
Wife Sarah A age 36 b Little Sutton
Niece Rose Horton age 12 b Lpool (down as ROAN)
Father In Law Charles Brookes Wid age 69 Navey b Drayton Staffs.

So i think we can say thats Harriets family, arrrrr maybe poor Sarah couldnt have kids..

xx

[colette]

Hi Lil

Irene went to the records office today..to looka at the baptism of Esther b 1890

As i expected no maiden name on record (c/e) but other details as follows
baptised on the 28 may Henry and Harriett Horton 10 gerard st father a groom (Irene)

Regards XX

[seasider66]

Hi Colette,

Well, what can I say? You're an absolute star You've done all the work for me and spent so much time on my family and I can only say Thank you...which is totally inadequate
I am forever in your debt and if ever I can do anything for you please let me know

I can't believe I now know all there is to know about Harriet, whereas previously all I knew was she was my gt.grandma and she was a little old lady who always wore black from head to foot, including a hat I was only a small child so anyone older than my mum would appear to be very old to me
I also have my very first Ag. Lab...Hooray practically everyone I know doing Family History has at least one Ag Lab and I was getting paranoid because I didn't have one

From all your work I now also know who my gt.gt.grandparents were as well, and that's fantastic as far as I'm concerned. I am still in a daze with all this info., and can't wait to build up my tree with it all.

I wonder why Rose went to live with Sarah? perhaps you're right and Sarah wasn't blessed with children of her own.

I love the address on the 1861 census...Muffins Den...conjures up all sorts of pictures in my mind, but I have no doubt they are all completely wrong I wonder if it's still there? Probably not, most old buildings have been demolished to make way for 'progress' some of which is so awful you'd wonder how it got through planning

Anyway, thank you again for all your hard work, which is much appreciated
Big Hugs for all your kindness
((((((xxxxxx))))))
Lil

[seasider66]

Hi Lil

Irene went to the records office today..to looka at the baptism of Esther b 1890

As i expected no maiden name on record (c/e) but other details as follows
baptised on the 28 may Henry and Harriett Horton 10 gerard st father a groom (Irene)

Regards XX

Thank you Irene and you Colette for doing this for me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it
It's lovely to have Baptism details as they are often hard to find.
Thank you both very much
Lil

[colette]

Hi Lil

You are welcome i enjoyed the challenge...

Any more probs throw them our way

xx

[seasider66]

Quick update on my family.
Today I got the birth cert for Jane Emily and the death cert for little Esther.

Jane Emily's mum is shown as Harriet Brookes and no father is shown, so that confirms all the information you so kindly found for me.

Little Esther died (aged just 3 years) from TB, Whooping Cough, Coughing Blood and Weakness and debility. All these are shown in medical terms of course, but how she must have suffered, the poor little child.
One odd thing though, Esther is shown as having died in 'Workhouse, Walton' but her mum, Harriet Horton is living at 82 Elias Street, Liverpool. Can anyone suggest why the little one would be in the workhouse rather than a hospital when she was so ill
Also, where was this workhouse?

It really saddened me when I read all that info. Esther is the second of my relatives who has died in poor circumstances. A gt.uncle from my mum's family died of TB and other illnesses in the 'Lunatic Asylum' in Lancaster. He was in there 8 years suffering from Melancholia...depression nowadays and was described as a pauper
I have no doubt that other relatives have also died in similar circumstances, but I've only found these two so far. It's all so sad
Lil

[colette]

Hi Lil

It will be in the infirmary part of the workhouse, my Great Gran had her baby there in 1907, but she also had her home address on the babys birth cert.. so dont be too worried..


Glad everythings tied together


xx

[seasider66]

Hi Colette,
Thank you for that info. I had no idea there was an infirmary in the workhouse. Presumably she was there because it was the nearest place to take her.
Any idea where the workhouse was?
By the way Harriet is described as a domestic servant on Jane Emily's birth cert. Wonder if the father was the 'Master of the house' or perhaps his son? I don't know who she worked for of course, but these things do happen, even today.
Thanks again.
Lil

[colette]

Hi its were Walton Hospital is or was not sure if its still going or not..

Heres some pics scroll down till you come to Walton,,

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/

Yes it could have been the man she worked for..

xx

[seasider66]

Thanks Colette,
Sorry that link doesn't work though
Lil