Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Looking for information about John William(s) Norman, born1873, and his brother, William Edward Norman, born 1863 in Liverpool. Mother, Jane nee Masterson b. Monaghan, Ireland about 1840 and father John James Norman, sailmaker, mariner born in Newbold on Avon, Warwickshire, 1836 who died in Te Hapua, New Zealand in 1881. Here is my info:
1. William Edward Norman Baptism Christening Date: 26 March 1872 Baptism/Christening Place: St. Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England Birth Date: 20 May 1863 Birthplace: Leander Street Father’s Name: John James Norman Mother’s Name: Jane
2. Norman, John Williams Liverpool Volume 8b Page 147 (Actual date was April 4th, 1873 and he was born in the Liverpool Workhouse: father’s occupation was seaman and his father’s name was John James Norman. Mother’s name was Jane. John Williams was born in the Liverpool Workhouse.
3. Marriage Info: NORMAN John MASTERSON Jane Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/32/413Married at the Parish church in Liverpool on August 10, 1856. John states he is a widower, Jane a spinster. His father was Edward Norman, farmer and her father was Thomas Masterson, mariner. Their marriage was by Banns, performed by Henry Brooks, Curate and witnessed by Philip Smith and Bridget McCormick.
1851 Census: John Norman living with parents in Newbold on Avon
1851 Census: Jane Masterson Age 21 Hand Servant in Parish Chorlton,Manchester for the Crowther family and she was born in Monaghan, Ireland.
1861 Census: can't locate either John and Jane Norman.
1871-1881 Census: can't locate John Norman
1871 Census: Jane is a dressmaker, married living with son William in Liverpool in a boarding house. Age is given as 28 and she was born in Ireland.
1881 Census: Jane is a 40 year old widow, working as a needlewoman and living with18 year old seaman son William and 8 year old son John William at 17 White Street in Liverpool.
45 year old Jane Norman died in Liverpool on August 2nd, 1885 in the Liverpool Workhouse .
Any help in finding Jane and John Norman on the 1861 census would be great. Any help in finding John Williams Norman on the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census would be helpful, too. I am at a brick wall with info about Jane Masterson prior to 1851 census. I believe John James Norman was first married to Susanna Coleman- as I can't find a marriage registration for him to anyone else- :Marriages from July to September, 1853
COLEMAN Susanna Liverpool Volume 8b Page 44
NORMAN John James Liverpool Volume 8b Page 44

Groom's Name John James Norman Bride's Name Susanna Coleman
Marriage Date 25 Jul 1853 Marriage Place St.Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name George Norman
Bride's Father's Name John Coleman Bride's Marital Status: Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M00706-4 Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number 1656678 Reference Number it 3 p61 No 121
However, can't find a death for Susanna Norman, nee Coleman to make John James a widow for his 1856 marriage to Jane Masterson. I have the following for a possible child born to John James and Susanna- but can't figure out what happened to her if mother died and father remarried????:
Name: Elizabeth Gender: Female Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Feb 1855
Baptism/Christening Place: Saint Clement, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father’s Name: John James Norman Mother’s Name: Susannah
Indexing Project Batch Number: C16030-1 System Origin: England-VR
Source Film Number: 1468979 Reference Number: - 2: MFSKZC
So, a few brick walls present themselves. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks so much. A. Eichel

A warm welcome to our forum. You have lots of info which will be of help to our genies, they will be on board soon.
All the best

Hi and welcome,
Have to say you have done very well so far!

Here's a starter I hope for 1891...
NORMAN, John William - Inmate - u/m - 18 - 1873 - Tailor - Liverpool.
RG12 - Piece: 2911 - Folio: 61 - Page: 4
Address: Boys Home, 9 Great George Square, Liverpool.

And for 1901, fairly sure this is John again, following in his father's footsteps...
NORMAN, John W - Boarder - u/m - 27 - 1874 - Seaman - Liverpool, Lancashire.
Address: 25 Rydal Street, Everton, Lancashire.
RG13 - Piece: 3485 - Folio: 148 Page: 19.

If you haven't found him in the 1911 census, his occupation as a seaman indicates he may have emigrated by leaving a ship while abroad. There is a death that might be him just before the 1911 census was taken. The age at death is slightly off but that often happened back then.
Death: NORMAN, John W
Registration district: East Grinstead, Sussex
Year/qtr of registration: 1911 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 39
Volume no: 2B; Page no: 104

And there are several deaths at sea for John Norman between 1901 and 1911.

Re Jane Masterson from Monaghan, Ireland.

Monaghan is both a town and a county and Jane doesn't indicate which, so I would assume the county. There is a county family research address here: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fiann ... aghan.html

And there's this:

Clogher Historical Society, 15 Glenview Heights, Monaghan
The Clogher Historical Society New Millennium Project is a non-profit historical research project based at St. Macartan's College, Monaghan. The Society is trying to trace all of the genealogical work being done on families who originated in the Diocese of Clogher, covering Monaghan, Fermanagh, and south Tyrone.

Could this be the daughter born to Susannah and John Norman in 1855?

Death: NORMAN, Elizabeth
Registration district: Liverpool
Year/qtr of registration: 1859 / Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 7

Burial of Elizabeth Norman at Walton Park Cemetery on 10th January, 1859, aged 4 years, address Limekiln Lane. Grave No. D151 No. 2524.

This would be a general grave, there are seven burials in it including other children.

Many many thanks to all who so promptly posted replies. They were most appreciated and particularly enjoyed by my 86 year old aunt, the grand-daughter of William Edward Norman, who is amazed at what has been gleaned about her mother's Norman lineage.
Here are some tidbits I have gathered about John Williams/W. Norman, but I am not at all certain as to whether or not they belong to my John Williams Norman... The 1891 and 1901 Census information about him seems to fit like a glove- I haven't been able to look on the 1911 Census yet to verify his appearance or disappearance due to:
a) his possible death in Jan-Feb. 1911Death: NORMAN, John W Registration district: East Grinstead, Sussex Year/qtr of registration: 1911 / Jan-Feb-Mar Age at death: 39 Volume no: 2B; Page no: 104) or
b) to his possible emigration overseas and/or his death at sea..
w
These are my musings/tidbits/possibilities about John Williams/W. Norman:
1. Marriages April to June, 1901 Norman John William West Derby Volume 8b Page 609 to Harris, Henrietta
(Birth Registration for Henrietta Harris, January to March, 1882 Harris, Henrietta Liverpool Volume 8b Page 147 and Death Registration for Henrietta Norman, September to December, 1919 Norman, Henrietta Age 36 Chorlton Volume 8c Page 676)
- (Possible Birth registration of their son : July to September, 1905 Norman John William Bury Volume 8c Page 585 and his Death registration October to December, 1905 Norman, John William 0 Bury )
- Possible Birth of their second child, also named for the father : Births Mar 1909 Norman John William W. Derby 8b 687
2. This marriage registration is a bit of a puzzle- either there are two different John William Normans ( what a coincidence) or a transcription error, or? ... What do you folks think?... "Norman John William West Derby, Volume 8b Page 609 Marriage April to June, 1901 to Shaw, Mary in Everton at St. Chrysostom Church, Aubrey Street, Liverpool 2095/WD/6/30"


3. The death of Elizabeth Norman in 1859 is interesting and fits with the birth of Elizabeth Norman in 1855 to John James and first wife Susanna. By 1859, John is remarried to second wife Jane and supposedly at the time of his marriage to her in 1856, he was a widower. Perhaps Elizabeth was brought into his second marriage to be raised by Jane, the step mother.... however, I can't find the death registration for Susanna Norman, nee Coleman to make John a widower.... Where did she go? Isn't it grand to have such genealogical puzzles to solve- it is food for the imagination at its best

Again, many thanks for all your sleuthing on my behalf. Ann Eichel, nee Hansford ( Dorset and Isle of Wight)

Re the marriage -

The indexes give four name on the same page for Q2 1901 W. Derby 8b 609 - ie two couples = two marriages.

Now check LancsBMD

HARRIS Henrietta married REECE John Everton, St. Chrysostom
and
NORMAN John W married SHAW Mary Everton, St. Chrysostom

On 8th April, 1901 At St Chrysostoms John William Norman, 28 years, Bachelor, Seaman, of 59 Aubrey Street, Father John Norman (Deceased) Seaman
married Mary Shaw, 20 years, Spinster, of 35 Rydal Street, Father John Thomas Shaw (Deceased) Coach Builder
Both signed their names
Witnesses Henry Shaw and Margaret Henderson Knox.

I'm afraid your assumed marriage to Henrietta Harris is a red herring.