Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello to all my name is George I have just joined your forum I am researching Pender,
Flannelly. My G Grandfather Thomas Edward Flannelly He was born 1847 Dublin.
Hewas on the 1871 census Oldham, 8th December 1874 He married Matilda Samson Pender, They are on the 1881census 40 Boyd Street Everton Lanc,s They
are also on the 1891 Census 45 Cellar Everton. After 1891 there is no trace of
Thomas Edward Flannelly I have checked the Death Register from 1891 to 1930 no trace
I have checked death at sea, nothing. I have checked to see if He whent back to Ireland.
I have checked if He emigrated nothing. I found He,s wife Matilda on the 1901 Census
6 Hopwood Street Warrington She his living with a John Samson She lived with John Samson untill her death in 1924 in Oldham Lancs on her death certificate it states widow of Thomas Edward Flannelly a brass finisher journeyman. He,s Father Thomas Edward Flannelly died Royal Southern Hospital 1888, So you see I have hit a brick wall
I would be most grateful for any help. thank you George

Hi George,

Welcome to the forum.

Also for the crew & yourself:

I think I have a Thomas Flannelly listed on the census summary books c 1910
RG 78 Piece 1403 listed as Thomas Flenndly living at 2 Grundy street Oldham.
For some reason cannot find him listed fully? (will keep looking)


No matter what I try it won't bring him up!

However at 20 Grundy street c 1910 there is a:

John Sampson aged 54 married occ: fruit hawker born London
Matilda (wife) born c 1857 Penzance Cornwall
Sarah 18 born warrington
Rosetta 16 warrington
Esther 14 warrington
Amy Dumbill 11 daughter? born warrington
Walter Dumbill son in law 34 born warrington
Willie g/son 8 born warrington

Two other children listed but crossed out
John & Wilfred Dumbill
RG 78 Piece 1403

Am I on the right track?

Gray

This Walter Dumbill listed on the c 1910 census married Elizabeth Flannelly Warrington sept 1901 8c 324

Elizabeth Flannelly is listed as dau on the 1891 census to Thomas E Flannelly born c 1847 Dublin & matilda(mother) born c 1858 Penganer, Cornwall, England
RG12 Piece:2952 folio:64 pg:46

Walter is listed 1891census as Walter Dumbell born c 1877 Sowerby Bridge Yorkshire
RG12 Piece: 3075 Folio:80 pg.15

Gray

Hi George, Not sure if you have seen this?

Have just been looking around and have found 2 notes on the 1901 census

Quote:
John Sampson
[Jacob Belasco]
[John Pender]

**Jacob lived for some time under the pseudonym John Sampson. He registered his children Amy, Rosetta, Leah Pauline and Esther Eugenia as Belasco but in Warrington they are all living under the name of Sampson in the 1901 census, on Hopwood Street.

John Belasco was known as Sampson but never as Pender**
RG13; Piece: 3584; Folio: 138; Page: 12.

I did find the surname Sampson for John a bit odd as Matildas' baptism is L.pool
and her middle name is Sampson.

Matilda Sampson Pender
Birth Date: 15 Jun 1857
Baptism Date: 28 Jul 1864
Parish: Liverpool St Peter
Father's Name: Peter Pender
Mother's Name: Cordelia Douglas Foshernham Pender



Gray

Gray wrote: I think I have a Thomas Flannelly listed on the census summary books c 1910
RG 78 Piece 1403 listed as Thomas Flenndly living at 2 Grundy street Oldham.
For some reason cannot find him listed fully?

I think you are right, although the summary book has the name over-written so making it unclear, I also think it is Flannelly but checking some of the neighbours the images for some of the street appear to be missing, not just him.

Quite a mystery!
In 1891 Thomas and Matilda Flanelly are alive and well with 6 children at Cellar, 47 Howe Street, Everton. RG12 - 2952 - 64 - 46.

In 1901 Matilda is now Sampson living with John Sampson and three of the Flanelly children, Augustus [bn abt 1876], Christina [bn abt 1888] and Ellen [bn about 1890]. RG13 - 3584 -138-12. 6 Hopwood Street, Warrington.

There are four 'Sampson' children in the family, Leah [bn 1893 in Oldham not Warrington, BTW], Rose [bn abt 1895], Amy [bn abt 1899' and Esther [bn abt 1897].

In the last census Matilda claims to have been married 19 years which conveniently fits with Leah Sampson's birth.

Of the remaining 1891 Flanelly children we are aware of, we know Elizabeth [bn abt 1883] married Walter Dumbill in 1901, and she seems to have remained 'in contact' with her mother although absent from the household in the last census.

I haven't found a marriage for Matilda and John Sampson [aka etc], so did the Flanelly family simply split up or was deserted by Thomas or did he die? The absence of a later marriage for Matilda leads me to suspect Thomas did a runner?

His son Robert has married by 1901:
FLANNELLY, Robert - Head - Married - 20 - Labourer on railway - Lpool, Lancashire
FLANNELLY, Francis - Wife - 20 - Warrington, Lancashire
FLANNELLY, Matilda - Dtr - 0 (6 MOS) - Warrington, Lancashire
DELOOZE, James - Brother-in-law - u/m - 25 - Torpedo Maker - Warrington, Lancashire.
Address: 144 Ellesmere Street, Warrington, Lancashire
RG13 - Piece: 3583 - Folio: 117 - Page: 30
Named his first child after his mother so relationship must be amicable?

Isabella appears to have married either JOLLEY, James or MEAKIN, Harry.
Marriage: FLANNELLY, Isabella
Registration district: Warrington
Year of registration: 1899; Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 278

Thomas and John were in associated trades, iron planer and iron driller. Could be they worked together?

MaryA wrote:

Gray wrote: I think I have a Thomas Flannelly listed on the census summary books c 1910
RG 78 Piece 1403 listed as Thomas Flenndly living at 2 Grundy street Oldham.
For some reason cannot find him listed fully?

I think you are right, although the summary book has the name over-written so making it unclear, I also think it is Flannelly but checking some of the neighbours the images for some of the street appear to be missing, not just him.

There is no Thomas Fla* resident at 2 Grundy Street, Oldham. The head of household is a Robert Flannelly aged 30 with a wife and four daughters. A McCann family are boarders there.

I think the forename entry on the Street list is a mistake. All other details match.

There are a few 'Family Trees' on Anc. for this famiy. Some have Thomas E Flannelly listed, some not. There is also an abundance of great family pictures.

Two of them list a death for Thomas:
Death Jun 1930 in Oldham, Lancashire, , England

I have searched thoroughly but no joy.. even using soundex.

Yes DS 'tis a mystery.

Gray

Hi DS,

This is the cover for c 1910:

Thomas Flenndly
[Thomas Flannelly]
Number of Males: 3
Number of Females: 8
Household schedule number: 265
Street Address: 2 Grundy Street
Civil parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: Oldham St Stephens and All Martyrs Lower Moor
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Residence Year: 1911
Registration district: Oldham
Registration District Number: 469
Sub-registration district: Oldham East
Sub-Registration District Number: 1
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1403

Gray

Hi Gray,
That street list has to be incorrect. This is the main householder, where there are a total of 11 people in 4 rooms, 3 male and 8 female, the Flannelly and McCann families. No Thomas listed.
FLANNELLY, Robert Edward - 30 - Fruit salesman - Liverpool
FLANNELLY, Frances - Wife - 30 - Mixer, cotton warehouse - Warrington.
Address: 2 Grundy Street, Oldham, Lancashire.

Hi Gray,
Re:

Two of them list a death for Thomas:
Death Jun 1930 in Oldham, Lancashire, , England
I have searched thoroughly but no joy.. even using soundex.

Two sources have failed to produce a death in 1930 anywhere, let alone Oldham, for Thomas Flannelly. A wide search for Thomas Fla* born 1843 +/- 20 years, died anywhere, drew a blank also.

Pity those trees that have that death entry don't specify a source.

Hi DS,

I have the listing for Robert E Flannelly in front of me..
2 Grundy Street..

There is only a Robert Brierley at No 1 Grundy Street.. on my cover page.


It's strange

Yes I agree re death date on Anc.

Gray

dickiesam Thank you for your time and help regarding Thomas Edward Flannelly
I have checked the death registers from 1891-1930 nothing found, I have seen the family tree,s mentioned. once again thank you. George

Off track slightly but grist to the mill....
By Gray:

**Jacob lived for some time under the pseudonym John Sampson. He registered his children Amy, Rosetta, Leah Pauline and Esther Eugenia as Belasco but in Warrington they are all living under the name of Sampson in the 1901 census, on Hopwood Street.

Just to confirm the above, Belasco registered births up to 1900:
BELASCO, Gerald O'hara - West Derby - 1886
BELASCO, Leah Pauline - Warrington - 1892
BELASCO, Rosetta - Warrington - 1894
BELASCO, Francisco - Liverpool - 1896
BELASCO, Esther Eugenia - Warrington - 1897
BELASCO, Amy - Warrington - 1899

One of the birth or baptism certs would be interesting to see who the mother is.

So in 1891 John Belasco is here:
BELASCO, John - Head - Married - 33 - Blacksmith - Islington, London
BELASCO, Mary Ann - Wife - 35 - Liverpool, Lancashire
HAZELTINE, Benjamin - Stepson [sic] - Married - 25 - Stationery Engine Driver - Liverpool, Lancashire
HAZELTINE, Jane - Step-dtr-in-law [sic] - Married - 27 - Liverpool, Lancashire
Address: 53 Conway Street, Everton, Liverpool.
RG12 - Piece: 2952 - Folio: 8 - Page: 9

Benjamin Hazeltine is actually John's brother-in-law.
See 1881: RG11 - Piece: 3660 - Folio: 44 - Page: 20
Address: 83, Gordon Street, Everton

If the marriage had soured maybe that's why he used the name Sampson and moved to Warrington with Matilda?
BELASCO, John married HAZELTINE, Mary Ann
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1880; Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 284

Hello George,
Just a long shot...
There's an 1891 death that might be your Thomas if the transcribing of the surname between local registrar and the GRO was a little lax. The age is out slightly but that would not worry me. Ages at death were often guestimates back then with no proof of birth required.
Death: FLAHERTY, Thomas
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1891; Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 46
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 451

Going 'Google eyed' here.
So must you be DS.
Have not found any baptisms as yet but still on the case.

Have found the marriage below: LDS

It says Mary Ann Hazeltine (widowed) father: Thomas Jones

groom's name: John Belasco (Family trees Anc.have him as Jacob) father David.
groom's birth date: 1852
groom's age: 28
bride's name: Mary Ann Hazeltine
bride's birth date: 1848

bride's age: 32
marriage date: 28 Dec 1880
marriage place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
groom's father's name: David Belasco
bride's father's name: Thomas Jones
bride's marital status: Widowed
indexing project (batch) number: M00750-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1656686
reference number: it 4, p 116, no 231


Will have another go tomorrow, I need more beauty sleep than DS

Gray

To throw a spanner in the works:

There's a marr Anc:

St Nicholas 15/7/1866

John Hazeltine full age batchelor occ: lab. Burlington str;
Father: Benjamin Hazeltine occ: Lab.

Mary Ann Jones Full age WIDOW Burlington str;
Father: Thomas Wharton occ: bricklayer

Both make their mark.
Witnesses: George Thornton & Ca?? Askew

Possibly the marriage to John(Jacob) Belasco did not take into account that she was already a widow and assumed her maiden name was Jones?

Gray

Stir the pot, muddy the waters, etc...
From 1871:
John Belasco, with his parents David and Pauline. Looks like a moneyed family. David is a retired wine merchant, with servants.
BELASCO, John - Son - 13 - 1858 - Middlesex, St Martin's.
Address: 315 Mile End Rd, London, Middlesex
RG10 - Piece: 565 - Folio: 126 - Page: 23

That age could be wrong because the given ages for his 3 sisters don't match the GRO births. Can't find a John B 1858 or near match birth but there is this one:
BELASCO, Jacob - London, Whitechapel - 1861 Mar qtr.

Hello dickiesam, Gray,Thank you. Ihave the birth certificate for Lea Pauline Balasco it states Father John Belasco mother Mitilda Belasco formerly Pender. Matilda was the mother of Leah, Rosetta, Esther, Amy,
I have been in touch with some half cousins descendents of Jacob and Matilda I was told that there was a purge on jews that his why He used John Samson.I will check out the death of Flaherty Thomas 1891.
Once again thank you Regards George

Hi George,

Not sure if you have this information but here goes.

1891 census RG12 Piece 2952 Folio 8 pg.9
address: 53 Conway Str; Everton L.pool

John Belasco says on cover born c 1838 Islington London - the actual image says aged 32 ( c 1859)
occ: Blacksmith

Mary Ann born c 1838 L.pool ( abt 21 years age gap between MaryA & John/Jacob)
Benjamin Hazletine (census sp) stepson c 1866 L.pool occ: stationery engine driver
Jane step daughter in law born c 1864 L.pool


1901: RG13 Piece 5473 folio 160 pg.67
address: 112 Gordon str; Everton L.pool

Mary A BLASCOE (census sp) aged 62 (c1839) born L.pool (have sent error to Anc) occ: charwoman

Says Mary is married but living on her own.


Still looking for c 1910 census

Mary Ann died 1913
West Derby 4th qtr 1913 8b 384 (Anc)

Belasco Mary A 75 W. Derby Dec 1913 8b 384 Free BMD

Gray