Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'm trying to track down Elizabeth Morris born in Liverpool in the early 1850s. I hope someone can help suggest what to do next/interpret what I have so far.

I have the wedding certificate for my ggg-grandparents, George Linaker marrying Elizabeth Morris, 17th May 1875, Walton-on-the-hill. They both live in Bootle, George is an engine driver and their fathers are given as Richard Linaker (ironmonger) & John Morris (carter – deceased). Both are recorded as "of full age". I can track back quite a few generations of Linakers, so no problem there. Their first child is born in 1876, in Widnes, so they obviously moved soon after marrying.

Elizabeth dies in 1914, age 60. She is 57 in the 1911 census (born Liverpool), 47 in the 1901 census, 37 in the 1891 census and 27 in the 1881 census. So far, so good. This would seem to put her birthdate as second half of 1853/first half of 1854.

In the 1861 census, Dale St, Liverpool, I find a family with father John Morris 48, b Ruthin Denbighshire (a Carter) with Ellen Morris, 32 b Holyhead Anglesey and Elizabeth 8, John 6, Mary Ellen 3 and "Margret" 2. Unfortunately, the census image on FMP is blank. I see from BMD that John Morris m. Ellen Campbell in Oct-Dec 1854, which would presumably be after Elizabeth's birth. I can find Ellen living with daughter Mary Ellen in the 1881 census and also living in Anglesey in earlier censuses.

In the 1851 census, Mount Pleasant, Liverpool, there is a John Morris 36, b Denbigh (Dock Labourer) with Ann Morris 36 (b Denbigh), Jane 10 Mary 7 & Emma 3, all born Liverpool. I can't find BMD entries for Jane or Emma. Emma appears to be 12 in the 1861 census and working as a servant in Ruthin (so presumably with family/friends/neighbours of parents). There isn't therefore a clear link between the John Morris in 1851 and the John Morris in 1861 apart from the birthplace and perhaps the 1871 census.

The 1871 census is where it gets complicated. Can't find John Morris anywhere (although we know he's dead by 1875). Can't find Ellen Morris/Campbell anywhere either, although she is still alive. However, at Pall Mall Court, Liverpool is John Miller (35) and his wife Jane (29). John Miller m Jane Morris 26 Apr 1869 – parents John Miller & John Morris. Also present in the house is Mary E Morris 13 sister-in-law, which would seem to put Mary Ellen from the 1861 census in the same family as Jane from the 1851 census. Also there is Elizabeth Morris 19 Lodger. But, if this was the correct Elizabeth Morris, I'd expect her to be 17 and also listed as sister-in-law?

There is another possible match in the 1871 census, at Mount Pleasant:

David Morris 23 Liverpool Head
Jane Morris 47 Llanfyllin Mother
Elizabeth Morris 17 Liverpool Sister

There is only one birth of an Elizabeth Morris recorded in Liverpool in 1854 on BMD register - and this is to a David & Jane Morris (governor of the corporation baths) - which turns out to be the family at Mount Pleasant, above.

I can try sending off for certificates for earlier births (there are a few to choose from) but I wonder whether there's a better way to proceed? Also any suggestions on finding a date of death for her father - there are simply too many John Morris's to choose from!

Hi...there is Elizabeth Ann Morris c 9th Nov 1854 Liverpool parents John and Emma

Ann

To add to Ann,
Address, Great Howard St,

Father, Joiner.



Bert

The 1854 marriage.

John Morris, Full, Widower, Labourer, Key St, Father, William Morris, Labourer.

Ellen Campbell, Full, Widow, Key St, Father, William Hughes, Bookmaker.

Witnesses, John Roberts, Mary Williams.

29 Oct, 1854, St Nicholas, Liverpool.


Bert

Thank you everyone.

I had noted the baptism of Elizabeth Ann and dismissed it on the grounds that I'm pretty sure the 1861 census entry with John & Ellen rather than Emma, must be the correct one, although given the scale of Welsh migration to Liverpool, I suppose it's entirely possible there is more than one John Morris, carter. But it probably makes sense for me to look for this John, Emma & Elizabeth Ann in later censuses and see if it could match up. I couldn't relate this baptism to a particular GRO entry for a birth certificate, either.

The marriage details are very useful, thank you Bert. Ellen Campbell is living with her parents (called Hughes) and her 1 year old son in the 1851 census for Holyhead. Good to have it confirmed that she was a widow, as I've been unable to find her first marriage, or where she is in 1841. The son is still on Anglesey (aged 11) with his grandparents in 1861, when she has a new family in Liverpool. I think she is probably "my" Elizabeth's stepmother, but we'll see. John being a widower also means that the theory of the 1851 census & 1861 census John Morris being the same person is plausible.

Do you consider this gentleman the husband,

John Campbell, Death,
Registered, March Qtr, 1848,
Anglesey 27 370.



Bert

Hadn't thought to look for a death of a Campbell in Anglesey. Seems plausible - Campbell is not a common name in North Wales, after all. She is listed as "pauper" and living with parents in 1851, so it would make sense for husband to have died before then. Her son James Campbell is born late 1849 which would be after this death. Ellen is born in 1829, so (in theory) any marriage to a John Campbell should be registered somewhere - suppose it could have been Scotland or Ireland.

I think Baptisms/birth certificates for Elizabeth's brothers and sisters are probably the best way forward for me, but there are so many Morrises and this family doesn't seem to have been very good at registering things.

1861 at Bona Place
top of page says 10 court from Plumb Street to Pall Mall

Hi

Who witnessed the marriage of Elizabeth and George?

Simone x

Don't have the witnesses names in front of me at the moment, but I think they were "habitual witnesses" rather than family members. I've had quite a lot of luck with witnesses elsewhere, but not on this one. Thank you for the census image.

Re, 1871 census, John Miller, wife Jane and household is I think a reasonable hit, I wouldn't be overly concerned with a 2 year age difference for Elizabeth and her being recorded as Lodger and not sister in law is down to the enumerators way of going about his Job.
We know John Morris was deceased by 1874, (marriage cert) Failure to find him on the 71 census and 3 of his children living together is reason to believe he possibly died prior to 1871.

A possible sighting for his wife Ellen.

1871, industrial infants school, Everton, Liverpool.
Ellen Morris, 1826, Widow, pauper, assistant, Wales.

Rg 10 Piece 3816 Folio 49 Page 41.


Bert

Bertieone wrote:Re, 1871 census, John Miller, wife Jane and household is I think a reasonable hit, I wouldn't be overly concerned with a 2 year age difference for Elizabeth and her being recorded as Lodger and not sister in law is down to the enumerators way of going about his Job.
We know John Morris was deceased by 1874, (marriage cert) Failure to find him on the 71 census and 3 of his children living together is reason to believe he possibly died prior to 1871.

So - if I assume the 1861 John Morris and the 1851 John Morris are the same person, there should be a death for Ann Morris in Liverpool after 30th March 1851 (census date) and before John re-marries in October 1854. From the census ages, Elizabeth should be born between late 1851 and 1854, which points to her being born before the October 1854 marriage to Ellen. And there should be a death of John Morris in Liverpool between 1861 and 1871. As no children born after 1861 (as far as I know), it maybe suggests a death earlier in the decade.

Looking on BMD, I can see 4 possible births for Elizabeth Morris - and I can rule one out. 8 possible deaths for Ann Morris. 22 possible deaths for John, although 6 of those can be discounted and I guess a death cert/date isn't so important. Could work out expensive

You could always sell matches outside the station


Could be narrowed down a bit but still be costly.



Bert

Bert

So - I struck lucky. First certificate I applied for was the correct one. Elizabeth Morris, born 2 March 1853, Bonny Place, Hey Street, Liverpool. Parents John Morris, profession Carter and Ellen Morris formerly Hughes. This would be 18 months before John Morris and Ellen married in Toxteth.

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

Glad you got a good result!