Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Here I am with yet another disappearing gt grandfather, this time on hubby's side

Arthur Gissing was born in c1849 in Suffolk. So far I haven't found his birth.
His parents were John Gissing b.c1824, Woodbridge Suffolk and Mary Ann ??? b. c1826 Dennington, Suffolk. So far haven't found their marriage. There was one cert I sent for but it wasn't them from 1850

John Gissing was a lithographer and Arthur an accountant

Arthur was one of possibly 5 children ( could be more ) I have baptisms for some, but definitely have them later in life as they all left substantial wills.

Arthur married Mary Milward on 2 June 1873 at St Barnabas, Homerton, Middlesex
They have 3 daughters, Alice Mary b. 1874 Clapton, Middlesex, Edith Maria b. 1875 Stratford, London and Nellie Sarah b. 1878 at 69 Canterbury Street, Liverpool

The first mystery, why come to Liverpool, did the other daughters come too, did he stay?????

In 1881 Census Mary and daughter Nellie Sarah are back in Walthamstow living with her parents, she is also there in 1891.
Meanwhile the other daughters, Alice and Edith are living in West Ham with Arthur's parents John and Mary Ann. They are in 1881 and 1891 census and stay with them until they marry.

Where did Arthur go????? No sign of him in any census, no death record either.
Mary Gissing nee Milward died in 1904 and I have her will, where it states she is "the wife of Arthur Gissing"

So another mystery for me to solve.
Overseas records turn up a few suggestions, but I haven't a full sub to A******y so can't check them out.
Hubby's auntie who is still alive and 92 just says he left, but knows no more.
Any help would be extremely welcome, but I fear another brickwall and another mysterious gt grandfather

Nothing of anywhere near the right age in Outgoing Passenger Lists, nor USA Censuses.

Hi Erika,

There is a John Gissing occ: lithographer:
1861 census. The name has been altered from Gessing to Gissing on Anc.

His wife is called Margaret though!!!
RG9 Piece 242 Folio 142 pg 34
Address: 17 Grange str; Shoreditch, St Leonard, Hoxton Old Town Middlesex

John Gissing 38 occ: Lithographer born Suffolk
Margaret 36 born Suffolk
ARTHUR 11 born Suffolk
Alice 10 born Suffolk
Henry 2 born Suffolk

Then 1871 census RG10 Piece 318 Folio 59 page 67
address: 43 Blomfield? str; West hackney London
same man different wife???

John 48 Lithographer born Woodbridge Suffolk
MARY ANN 47 born Pennington/Dennington Suffolk
Arthur 22 unmarr born "
Alice 20 unmarr born "
Henry 12 Tillington? Suffolk
John R 9 born Hackney London
Laura 6 says born Hackney but image says Frome

Hopefully on the right track!!

Grayx

1841 census Woodbridge has a John aged 20 son of Samuel and a John aged 15 son of James.

John the son of Samuel follows in his father's footsteps and is a Physician etc in the 1851 census.

1841 census for John Gissing

Class H0107 Piece 1028 Book 18
Address: Market Hill Woodbridge Suffolk.

Samuel Gissing 60 (occ: surgeon) I thought at first sawyer but No.. surgeon.
Anne 45
JOHN 20
George 16
William 10
Eleanor 9

3 family servants

Snap Hilary

Grayx

Why did you discount the 1850 marriage certificate? Was it the one to Mary Ann Sawyer by any chance?

Have you found John in the 1851 census?

Thank you everyone with all your ideas and suggestions so far.
I have the censuses you found Gray and Hilary.

1841 I have 2 options, the one you had Hilary and another where John is the son of James a sexton at St Marys Church in Woodbridge.
Not discounting either at the moment.

The marriage cert was to Mary Ann Sawyer, but John's occupation was a shoemaker and his father was Tobias also a shoemaker.
I found them in a later census and their ages didn't correspond, I think John was born abt 1909.
They didn't seem to have any children and Mary Ann's sister who was also a witness at their marriage was living with them.

Haven't got John in the 1851, but in '61, '71, '81, '91
John dies in 1891 and Mary Ann in 1893

Thanks for your interest

Hi Erika,
Yet another puzzler....

Haven't found a marriage for John and Mary A yet other than the one you discounted
GISSING, John married either SAWYER, Mary Ann or WRIGHT, Elizabeth
Registration district: Hoxne, Suffolk
Year of registration: 1850; Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 13; Page no: 729

Worth noting that in the 1871 census wife Mary A, children Arthur and Alice are said to be from Dennington [looks like Pennington] which falls within the registration district of Hoxne.

A possible? Births Jun 1853: GISSING, Arthur John - Hartismere - 4a - 503

More possibles?
GISSING, Alice Ann - Suffolk, Hartismere - 1847 or
GISSING, Gertrude Alice - Suffolk, Hartismere - 1848

The 1861 has Henry born in Suffolk but I believe this is him as in the 1871 [Islington, Middlesex].
Births Mar 1859: GISSING, Henry William - Shoreditch - 1c - 172
and..
Births Dec 1861 - GISSING, John Robert - Hackney - 1b - 317

From Gray: Laura 6 says born Hackney but image says Frome

Frome is actually on the next line. Hackney is on Laura's line.

More later, I hope!

A possible sighting for John Gissing in 1851?

GISSING, Gerrard - Head - U/m - 63 - 1788 - Oil And Cologne Mar - Bacton, Suffolk
GISSING, Mary Ann - Sister - U/m - 58 - 1793 - Assistant - Wickham, Suffolk
GISSING, Charlotte Bloomfield - Sister - Widow - 51 - 1800 - House Keeper - Wickham, Suffolk
GISSING, John - Nephew - U/m - 24 - 1827 - Clerk - Mendlesham, Suffolk
Address: 40 Hamilton Row, Saint James Clerkenwell, Finsbury, Middlesex
HO107 - Piece: 1518 - Folio: 350 - Page: 43

Thanks DS for your input.

The trouble is Gissing is a common name in Suffolk and the other John Gissings that keep cropping up don't fit.

He and Mary Ann had Arthur and Alice Maria 1849 & 1850. They both married, but the later children,
Henry b.1859, John Robert b.1862 and Laura Mary 1865 never married. There was a big gap between Alice & Henry which makes me think there were others but they died.
When John died he left a will, Henry was the executor. Then when the others died they each left their money to the next one down, plus the family of one of Arthur's daughters, Alice Mary Gissing. That was odd don't you think?
No sign of Arthur and not mentioned in a will, although I haven't got all the wills yet.

I am very confused again

RE:

He and Mary Ann had Arthur and Alice Maria 1849 & 1850

Why are you sure about those birth years? I searched the 1851 for an Alice and an Arthur born Suffolk, but without surnames, birth years or birth place and got several hits but their parents were not John and Mary. Tried without place of birth but living in Suffolk and got similar hits. Wondering if they were born illegitimate and registered with their mother's maiden name? Only a birth cert for one of the 'identifiable' children will give that. Perhaps this one: Births Mar 1859: GISSING, Henry William - Shoreditch - 1c - 172

And there is the point that Gray raised with the mother in 1861 being shown as Margaret not Mary. And, is this her death with John then marrying a Mary?

Death: GISSING, Margaret
Registration district: Camberwell, London
Year of registration: 1864; Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 1D; Page no: 369

dickiesam wrote:RE:

And there is the point that Gray raised with the mother in 1861 being shown as Margaret not Mary. And, is this her death with John then marrying a Mary?

Death: GISSING, Margaret
Registration district: Camberwell, London
Year of registration: 1864; Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 1D; Page no: 369

Good point DS, I hadn't really considered that, will look into to it.
I've just ordered Henry's birth cert at least I should get a mother's maiden name

I also couldn't find a birth for Alice Maria, but later I found a baptism for Henry William and she was baptised at the same time at Hoxton St John, Hackney on 26 Jan 1859 her dob 9 Jul 1850.

So Arthur is the mystery man, I'll search for some marraiges to Margaret ???? just in case


Also thanks Mary for your passenger list lookups. Thought they may have been heading for a new life and then Mary changed her mind and went back to London. Where is Arthur?

Just had a quick thought about Margaret.
The baptisms were in 1859 and the mother's name given as Mary Ann, if Margaret didn't die until 1864 it doesn't seem to tie in

More confusion

John the son of Samuel can be discounted as he's in Woodbridge in 1851 following in his father's footsteps.

There are only two only Alice Maria * registered in 1850 in Suffolk.

This one where the district is right for Dennington [re 1871 census].
Births Sep 1850: Button, Alice Maria - Hoxne - 13 - 442
and
Births Jun 1850: Batram, Alice Maria - Blything - 13 - 439
[and Batram is on the original GRO Index page]

Lack of a death made think they were both alive at the 1851 census and not finding them that their mothers had married.

EDIT TO ADD: And this site may be able to assist: http://www.suffolkfhs.org.uk/

No further forward with Arthur I'm afraid.

Whilst looking today I have been trying to find a possible connection to L.pool.
This may be a complete 'Red Herring' nothing ventured and all that

On the OPC site there are three references to the Surname Gissing:

1.Marriage: 7 Aug 1905 St Jude the Apostle, West Derby, Lancashire, England
Samuel Gissing - 29 Painter Bachelor of 53 Kilshaw St.
Margaret Parker - 22 Spinster of 13 Hardwick St.
Groom's Father: John Gissing, Deceased, Draper
Bride's Father: Henry Parker, Bricklayer
Witness: John A. Wilson; Constance Robinson
Married by Banns by: Algernon A. Markham Vicar
Register: Marriages 1891 - 1912, Page 145, Entry 290
Source: LDS Film 1545847

Then two baptisms:
Baptisms: 3 Jun 1906 St Jude the Apostle, West Derby, Lancashire, England
Margaret Eliza Gissing - Child of Samuel Gissing & Margaret
Born: 18 May 1906
Abode: 17 Holly Bank
Occupation: Painter
Baptised by: A A Markham
Register: Baptisms 1901 - 1908, Page 63, Entry 564
Source: LDS Film 1545846

Baptisms: 2 Jun 1907 St Jude the Apostle, West Derby, Lancashire, England
Florence Kate Gissing - Child of Samuel Gissing & Margaret
Born: 19 May 1907
Abode: 3 Binney Street
Occupation: Painter
Baptised by: J F Oddin Taylor
Register: Baptisms 1901 - 1908, Page 78, Entry 700
Source: LDS Film 1545846

This baby sadly died the same year.

The different spellings for the Surname Gissing are unbelievable!!

1891 census:RG12 Piece 2949 Folio 58 Pg 11
Says Gessing on cover/Gissing on image
Addess: 8 Morris Str; Everton
Eliza Gissing widow c 1843 occ: dress maker Waldeck Slansouary?? it is actually Wales Carmarthneshire.
Fred c 1875 Everton Occ: office boy
Sam c 1877 Everton Occ: printers app
Alice c 1880 Everton
Arthur c 1882 Everton

1881 census:RG11 Piece 3667 Folio 96 Pg.28
address: 70 Harewood str; Everton

John F Gissing c1839 occ: Draper born Boddingham Suffolk ('tis actually Baddingham) which is a village near Woodbridge Suffolk
Eliza c 1846 Llangaddock? Carmathenshire
Kate M F c 1870 Everton
Fredk J A c 1875 Everton
Sam Farrier Gissing c 1877 Everton
Alice c 1880 Everton

Birth: John Foulshaw Gissing Hoxne suffolk 2nd qtr 1838 13 436

marr: John Foulshaw Gissing L.pool 3rd qtr 1868 8b 171 to Eliza Turner.

There are also numerous spellings for Foulshaw on Anc

I am wondering if this was a close relative of your Arthur's father John Gissing born woodbridge 1824 and was this family the reason he came to L.pool?
Possibly something to keep on file?

Gray

Gray wrote:
Birth: John Foulshaw Gissing Hoxne suffolk 2nd qtr 1838 13 436

marr: John Foulshaw Gissing L.pool 3rd qtr 1868 8b 171 to Eliza Turner.

There are also numerous spellings for Foulshaw on Anc

I am wondering if this was a close relative of your Arthur's father John Gissing born woodbridge 1824 and was this family the reason he came to L.pool?
Possibly something to keep on file?

Gray

Thanks Gray that is certainly worth keeping in mind.

If I could find John's marriage I may have more hope of finding him in 1841 census and his family.
Certainly is a little troublesome to say the least.
I checked the 1881 census for 69 Canterbury St, but there was no clue there. Unfortunately my 1881 directory has stuck on the letter B for street names so can't check that myself.
Anyone got a 1881 directory that works

DS

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll check out those names, although the Batram birth is probably out as it was a June registration and I've got her birth for July, however the baptism was 9 years later and they may have got it wrong!!!
Contacted the Suffolk FHS with my names too, so hope for a reply. They looked a good group too, so thanks for the link

Have a good weekend everyone

Hello,

Just thinking about John Gissing's wife - Margaret / Mary Ann:

1859 Alice & Henry baptised - mother given as Mary Ann
1861 census - Mother given as Margaret
1871 census onwards - Mother given as Mary Ann

Could Margaret have been a typo in the 1861 census?

Alison x

This one where the district is right for Dennington [re 1871 census].
Births Sep 1850: Button, Alice Maria - Hoxne - 13 - 442

There is also the following birth registration on FreeBMD:
Q2 1849
Arthur Gissing BUTTON Woodbridge, Vol 12, page 539

Could both Alice and Arthur have been registered as Buttons? Maybe this was Mary Ann's maiden name and she and John Gissing weren't married at the time??

Alison x