Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi,

I am opening a new thread, since this has to do mainly with Sarah Widders.

My mother in laws great grandmother was named Sarah Widders, and was born in 1871. She was married to Joshua McDonald.

Here they are in the census:

The 91 census, Joshua and Sarah nee Widders are alone,
1901 census, Albert Terrace
Joshua, head, 30, Blacksmith
Sarah wife, 30,
John, son, 9
Sarah, dau, 10,
Lizzie, dau, 4
All born Lancashire,
Rg 13 Piece 3388, Folio 79 Page 43

I just recived what I belived to be her birth certificate in the post today. There is only a few questions I have concerning this:

It says that her name is Sarah Carter Widders - later on it's Lucy (on the marriage certificate).

It also says that she was born on the 18th March, but on her passport it says that she was born on the 17th May.

Her father is John Widders, so that is correct, but could I have gotten hold of the wrong Sarah here?

Here is the birtcertificate:


Thanks for all help!
Geir

1861, census, Address????

John Room, Head, 38, cooper, Cumberland.
Mary Ann Room, wife 39, Workington.
Mary Ann Widders, 18, dau, boarder, Liverpool
John Widders, 22, son in law, Boarder, cooper, Runcorn,
Martha Francis Room, dau, 11, Liverpool.
John Carter Room, son 9 : :
Sarah Carter Room dau, 5 : :

Rg 9 Piece 2598, Folio 170 Page29

you can see where the name came from.

On your Sarah's marriage certificate what is the occupation of her father John?

The birth date certainly doesn't tie in with her passport

Education Officer wrote:On your Sarah's marriage certificate what is the occupation of her father John?

The birth date certainly doesn't tie in with her passport

Boatman, Hilary.

Sarah Carter Widdows born 18 March 1871 christened 5 September 1871 at St Peter parents John and Mary Ann of Kent St John a waterman

That would tie in with a boatman

Hi,

Thanks for showing an interest!

I think it says boatman? I'm not sure what it says on the birtcert. Is it Watchman?

Geir

Here is the marriage:

Birth certificate says waterman
Baptism entry says waterman
Marriage says boatman

boatman and waterman are generally terms referring to prople who sailed the smaller boats on the canal and river systems

Hi,


There's no other Sarah Widders registered between 70/72, Liverpool.

Marriage,
June Qtr, 1841, Liverpool, 20 254
John Room
Mary Ann Carter

John Widders's wife Mary Ann dies 1878

He marries Mary Ann Clayton on 17 Aug 1879 marriage entry on Ancestry

He is alive and well in 1891
34 Macbeth St
John Widders 52 waterman bn Liverpool
Mary A wife 32 bn Birkenhead
Mary A Clayton 16 stepdaughter bn Liverpool

Marries Hannah Seel 1899 St Nicholas

1901 5 Oxton St Walton on the Hill
John Widders 62 barge/waterman bn Runcorn
Hannah wife 46 bn Manchester

Can't see him in 1911 but he dies 1914

If it is your Sarah and it looks likely she was a little economical with the truth over her father. Maybe saying deceased as she was underage or maybe one party either her or her father had disowned each other.

That is what I have been thinking also. I think she lives away from her father in 1881.

page 8 (not sure about folio number)
RG11/3615

She could have felt that he was dead to her, or that she had no contact with him, and thought he really was dead. But along with the name (Lucy not Carter), the date of birth, and that she states him as deceased - could there be two Sarah Widders?

Thanks
Geir

John Room & Mary Ann Carter - Marriage 1841 at St. Nicholas church





Blue

1881 census,

Mirl Doyle, head, 39, Dock Labourer, Ireland,
Ann, wife, 37, Ireland
Sarah Widders, 11, Adopted Daughter, Liverpool.
Thomas Caffery, Boarder, Dock Labourer, Ireland

Rg 11, Piece 3615, Folio 52, Page 8

Thanks for the information about the Rooms! If I'm on the right track, that is great news!

But do you all think that I have the right John and Sarah Widders? My mother in law just told me that her grandmother said that she was Irish. I doubt this though, since at least on the censuses with Joshua, it says that she was born in Liverpool. I think she must have refered to the other side of the family.

But, the "Lucy" name that suddenly appears, the date of birth and the "deceased" father. Can all of that be explained away. There is at least a connection with the boatman/waterman.

Thanks
Geir

GeirGG wrote:Thanks for the information about the Rooms! If I'm on the right track, that is great news!

But do you all think that I have the right John and Sarah Widders? My mother in law just told me that her grandmother said that she was Irish. I doubt this though, since at least on the censuses with Joshua, it says that she was born in Liverpool. I think she must have refered to the other side of the family.

But, the "Lucy" name that suddenly appears, the date of birth and the "deceased" father. Can all of that be explained away. There is at least a connection with the boatman/waterman.

Thanks
Geir

A girl with a middle name of Carter could simply 'dump' the name and pick another she preferred, Lucy. While these days surnames can be legally changed there was nothing to prevent one adopting a forename.

I agree with Hilary's suggestions as to why Sarah said her father was deceased etc..

If it is your Sarah and it looks likely she was a little economical with the truth over her father. Maybe saying deceased as she was underage or maybe one party either her or her father had disowned each other.

These are the only births registered between 1860 and 1880 in England and Wales, only Sarah Carter Widders
fits the bill as far as your Sarah is concerned, if she was abandoned by her father after her mother died and had no further contact with him and had an adopted family, it would be understandable she thought he had died.
Births Mar 1864
WIDDERS Sarah Wisbeach 3b 637
Births Jun 1867
Widders Sarah Runcorn 8a 214
Births Jun 1871
Widders Sarah Carter Liverpool 8b 123
Births Jun 1874
Widders Sarah Radcliff Runcorn 8a 240
Births Sep 1879
Widders Sarah Jane Prescot 8b 685

Ok, I buy that. What about the date of birth? Is there any other way to find out the date of birth of Sarah? I mean could she have gotten her dates mixed up somehow? Are there any way to see if the Sarah Widders living with Joshua is born on the 18th of March?

Thanks
Geir

The passport birth date has to be wrong, the birth cert can't be wrong as her birth was registered in April.

Can you put an image up of the passport?

It is quite possible she didn't know precisely when she was born but knew it was in the Spring of 1871, round about the 17/18th of a month. Maybe that is what she was told. Was not uncommon for people to not know their birthday. Sometimes it could be confused with the date of a baptism. Most working-class people didn't need to have a birth certificate.

My mother in law has the passport, but I will be able to see it in about 14 days. I am trying to research her family for her as a christmas present, so I must not let her know what I am up to:-)

I was also thinking that since her mother died young (if that is the right Sarah), she maybe wasn't too sure about stuff like her birthday. But, wouldn't the officials know when she went and got a passport?

Thanks
Geir