Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello all
I'm trying to find out information about my great-grandfather Thomas Quinn and someone suggested I try your forum.
Thomas married Margaret Alice Wilcox in 1896 in Wigan & Leigh.
Their son (my grandfather) Francis Wilcox was born in Wigan before they married in 1891.

Margaret is listed (I think) as a widow and in hospital in the 1901 census.
She married a Thomas Jarvis in 1903.

My mother believed that Thomas Quinn died in a large mining accident somewhere in the Wigan area.
The only death I can find on the Lancashire BMD that matches the years above (i.e. between 1896 and 1901) is 1897 - but there is no mining accident that year.
Can anyone give me any tips on how to be sure the 1897 record is his (before I order a death cert) and also if there were any other mining accidents around that time.
Thanks in advance
Helen

I would be inclined to contact the correct register office and request the certificate but give all the details you have of address and wive's name and that he died in a mine or something like that. Hopefully if it doesn't fit the details they won't charge you.

I see that back in September on another forum no suitable mining disaster was found. There is always the possibility that the couple split up and went their separate ways!!

Hello Helen,
If you have their marriage cert how old is Thomas Quinn shown as on the cert?

QUINN, Thomas married WILCOX, Margaret Alice.
Registration district: Wigan, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1896; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8C; Page no: 159

Do you know if any other children were born to this couple?

There was only one 'local' mining disaster in the period 1896 to 1901, that at Old Boston, Haydock, Lancashire, on the 29th of June 1900. Men were killed there but Thomas Quinn was not among them. There is the possibility that he died as the result of an accident at a colliery which has become a 'mining disaster' as it was passed down as lore.

Hi and welcome to the forum. I would just add to Education Officer's comments, that you approach the local Register Office rather than the GRO, as I believe they may be more helpful in checking details rather than just providing the certificate you request.

Does the age for the second death match the age in the marriage cert?
The only 2 deaths I could find registered in Wigan between 1896 and 1901 were these two; the second one being the one you found...
Deaths Sep 1897:
Quinn, Thomas - 0 - Wigan - 8c - 68.
Quinn, Thomas - 29 - Wigan - 8c - 24

Hi

Maybe Thomas had an accident himself in the mine and died later... My g grandfather and my g uncle both had accidents in the mines (Forest of Dean)that rendered them paralysed until their deaths some months later. I did manage to find a report on my great grandfather's accident in local newspapers with the headline 'Coalway Collier's painful death'. Although it wasn't a large mining disaster as such it is recorded in the Mining disaster records for the area...it certainly was a disaster for him and the family thereafter

If you confirm via the death certificate that his death was as a result of a mining accident, maye the local papers will be worth a try

Good Luck

Simone x

Thank you for all the help.

I don't have a marriage cert for Margaret Wilcox and Thomas Quinn so don't know his age.
The only official mention I have for him is on my grandparents' marriage cert (1929) where Francis (Frank) Wilcox's father is named as Thomas Quinn (deceased), miner.
He isn't named on Frank's birth cert as Margaret and Thomas weren't married by then.

My parents and grandparents are all dead so there is no-one to ask.

The only reason I have for thinking there was a mining accident is something my Mum wrote about her dad Frank which refers to him being born illegitimate, his parents later marrying but then Thomas Quinn being killed soon afterwards in a mining explosion in which at least 10 houses in Swan(n) St, Wigan, lost a man that day. Of course, just because my Mum thought this family story was true doesn't mean it is...

If I had limitless funds I would order Margaret and Thomas's marriage cert and then the death cert for Thomas, but was thinking that the death cert might tell me more i didn't already know if I was trying to save money!
It's an expensive business this, isn't it?

Helen

What you could do to save money is go to Wigan Archives (if you live near) and access the records. I do know that in St. Helens Local Studies department they have a book of all those killed in mine disasters. I was able to extract all those from the Whiston and Prescot Area.

The Thomas Quinn who died in 1897 was buried at Wigan Cemetery (Lower Ince) in grave D533 (RC) looks like a public grave. He was buried on 9 August 1897 and address given as 15 Top Croft. This was on the Wigan World website.

Looking at the 1891 census he appears to be the son of Stephen and Mary Quinn who are living at 6 Top Croft in 1891 and he is a coal miner.

You really need Thomas' marriage certificate or you could look at the RC church marriages at Wigan History shop to find the marriage.

Earlier this month on the FamilyHistoryUK forum you appear to have already been the information I have just posted with the same burial references I have given.

We would have appreciated if you had given us all the information you have already received on other forums to save duplication of research.

Without the marriage certificate and/or death certificate you cannot proceed. The marriage certificate you could possibly find if it was at a RC church by trawling the marriage registers for RC marriages at Wigan History Shop. Death certificates you cannot see expect by paying for them.

If I had limitless funds I would order Margaret and Thomas's marriage cert and then the death cert for Thomas, but was thinking that the death cert might tell me more i didn't already know if I was trying to save money!
It's an expensive business this, isn't it?

Yes the cost of certs can mount up but often there is no other way to be sure you are on the right track.
You need to know Thomas' age and father's name/occupation from the marriage cert to confirm who he is before that death cert for cause of death.

With regard to cost, just in case you don't know, never buy a BMD cert from an online subscription site which will charge 2 or 3 times as much as the GRO. Always buy from the local District Registry Office where the event occurred or from the GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp
The latter charges £9.25 but buying from an online subscription site will cost you considerably more

Thank you everybody for the help.
It seems like I will have to buy the marriage cert first.

I don't live in Wigan or nearby so will have to save that kind of research for a road trip sometime in the future.
Thanks for the suggestion though.

Hilary, apologies if I did not give all the information I had. I didn't want to take up too much space.
Also I have no way of knowing if that is the address for my Thomas Quinn, so was just trying to get some suggestions as to whether I should now buy the death cert.
I had no intention of increasing anyone's workload and will be more careful what I ask in future.
I am new to this game!

Thanks again to everyone
Helen

Hello Helen,
This site http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/ gives access to a complete list of coal mine disasters in England, Scotland and Wales. It is broken down to specific periods for ease of browsing. There are 3 documents covering the period 1896 to 1901.

My search criteria for the newspapers that I gave above didn't seem to work well and I came up with a totally incorrect entry, now removed, although it might serve you well to do a search of local newspapers rather than those available only online.

HT100 wrote:I did not give all the information I had. I didn't want to take up too much space.

Providing all the information does save duplication of research on the part of those trying to help.

If I could make an observation. Francis Wilcox was born 1891, Margaret Wilcox married Thomas Quinn in 1896. How can you be sure that Thomas is the reputed father of Francis? Its quite a gap between the birth and marriage? I know it states on the marriage certificate that Thomas is his father, but us old genealogists always keep a open mind with this family tree lark.

Katie wrote:If I could make an observation. Francis Wilcox was born 1891, Margaret Wilcox married Thomas Quinn in 1896. How can you be sure that Thomas is the reputed father of Francis? Its quite a gap between the birth and marriage? I know it states on the marriage certificate that Thomas is his father, but us old genealogists always keep a open mind with this family tree lark.

As Katie indicates, despite what the marriage cert has, without a father's name on the birth cert or a specific reference by Thomas to 'my son Francis', perhaps in a will etc, there is no evidence that he was the father. It is literally hearsay [what Francis was told] and, regrettably, it means the male line trail ceases with Francis' birth.

Around 1911 he is listed as Frank Wilcox living as stepson to his mother's new husband. To me this is an indication he was not Thomas Quinn's son. If he was I woild expect him to be called Quinn.

Does he marry as Wilcox or Quinn? Where is he in 1901?

Education Officer wrote:Does he marry as Wilcox or Quinn? Where is he in 1901?

This would be his mother in 1901..
RG13 - Piece: 3559 - Folio: 62 - Page: 3
Royal Albert Edward Infirmary, Wigan Lane Wigan
QUINN, Margaret - Patient - Widow - 29 - 1872 - Cotton Finisher In Blowing Room (Mill) - Hindley Green, Lancashire

I think this is her son in 1901. it's the only hit in the area.
RG13 - Piece: 3559 - Folio: 51 - Page: 43
Address: 14 Baileys Court, Hallgate, Wigan, Lancashire
SMITH, Elizabeth - Head - U/m - 46 - Wigan, Lancashire
SMITH, Willie - Son - 12 - Wigan, Lancashire
SMITH, Thomas - Son - 9 - Wigan, Lancashire
HALLIWELL, Edward - Boarder - U/m - 76 - General Labourer - Wigan, Lancashire
QUINN, Frank - Boarder - 9 - Wigan, Lancashire

As he was widow Margaret Quinn's son he would be known as a Quinn to anyone looking after him while his mother was in hospital.

I can find only one likely marriage in 1929....
Francis Wilcox married Elizabeth E Bolton
Registration district: Manchester South
Year of registration: 1929; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8D; Page no: 659

Thanks so much for all the latest

I hadn't been able to find Frank in the 1901 census but never thought to look for him as Quinn
That definitely does sound right and Frank was born in Baileys Court so they are neighbours.

Does anybody know what sort of hospital that was?
Is it just a regular hospital or a psychiatric one?

As for Frank being or not being Thomas Quinn's son, I guess we'll never know.
But the piece of writing my mum did about her dad did state that Margaret and Frank weren't allowed to marry because he was catholic and she protestant, and the priest used to beat Frank for being illegitimate. She says they eventually married defying their families (although why she changed her name and he didn't I don't know. Would she have had to pay money to change Frank's name as he was registered as Wilcox?
We were always told we had Irish ancestry through my Granddad's dad. Although of course all of this may be family stories as you say.

Frank was always known as Wilcox, my Mum's maiden name was Wilcox and yes that is the right marriage record to my gran Elizabeth Ellen Bolton. On the marriage cert he names his father as Thomas Quinn deceased so if he had just been a stepfather why would he have named him and not the next stepfather Jarvis?
Also my mum's writing refers to Frank spending time with his uncle and grandfather Quinn. Would they have bothered if he was a stepson?

Thanks again
Helen

HT100 wrote: On the marriage cert he names his father as Thomas Quinn deceased so if he had just been a stepfather why would he have named him and not the next stepfather Jarvis?

Probably because he was the person he looked on as his father - biological or not, he was probably the prominent figure in his life

HT100 wrote: Also my mum's writing refers to Frank spending time with his uncle and grandfather Quinn. Would they have bothered if he was a stepson?

Why not? if they brought him up, they looked on him as part of the family.