Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

(My ggrandfather William Robert Moore lived in Liverpool, where he married Ellen Ann Greaves 10 Sep 1893. Ellen Ann base born to Jane Greaves 1867 St. Martin. Jane Greaves d/o John Greaves and Jane Morris. This was given as first hand information from WR Moore, to my aunt who did much in compiling this family record.)
John Greaves born about 1814 Liverpool married Jane Morris (of Denbighshire, Wales) 7th April 1834 in Liverpool, found on line. They are in the 1841 St. Martin census as; John 25 b Lanc, Jane 25 not born Lancashire, Jane 2 b Lancashire and Wm. 3 mo b Lancashire. John Greaves died 1 July 1847 Liverpool, found on line. Jane Morris Greaves married second Hugh Bickerstaff, 17 November 1850, St. Nicholas Church, Parish of Liverpool, he a bachelor. I do have that marriage record, wherein Jane's father is given as William Morris, occupation butcher, same record gives Hugh's father as James Bickerstaff, labourer. Hugh and Jane Bickerstaff in 1851 St. Martin, show Hugh 29 laborer b Liverpool, Jane 38 b Denbighshire, Llanf*, and 1861 St. Martin, Hugh 39 believed b Manchester, Jane 46 b North Wales with 2 daughters. I have the death record of Jane Morris Greaves Bickerstaff, 1 Feb 1895, she of 51 Beau Street widow of Hugh Bickerstaff cotton porter, informant Jane Lawrison daughter. I have a lot of information about John Greaves, his parents, sibs, descendants etc, but what I have is not all proven. So for now I do not want to go there, for now with what information I have given, and I either have it from on line sources, or copies of certs, so I do not need info given.
I need to know...
who was Jane Morris's mother, did Jane have siblings? if so who are they? Were they in Liverpool at the time of her marriage to John Greaves?, if not where were they? Who is Hugh Bickerstaff's mother?, did Hugh have siblings?, if so who are they? Did they all live in Liverpool? Have I given enough information, of the correct kind to continue the search for James Bickerstaff and William Morris? I am trying to stay confined just to this family, but something wants to take over and include everyone. Arleta

For the crew,

17 Nov 1850, St Nicholas, Liverpool.

Hugh Bickerstaff, Full, Bachelor, Labourer, Father, James Bickerstaff, Labourer

Jane Greaves, Full, Widow, Father, William Morris, Butcher,

Both Addresses, Ebor St??

Witnesses, Thomas Mawdesley, Elizabeth Mawdesley.

1841, West Derby.
John Greaves, 25
Jane, wife, 25
Jane, 2
William, 3 months,
HO107, Piece564

1841, West Derby, Liverpool

James Bickerstaff, 45, Lab,
Mary Bickerstaff, 45
James, 20, Lab
Hugh, 15, Lab
Nanny,9
Thomas, 13
Robert, 5
HO107; Piece: 564; Book: 14

Baptisms: 20 Jul 1835 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Robert Bickerstaff - Child of James Bickerstaff & Mary
Abode: Eldon Street
Occupation: Labourer

Possible marriage
14 Sept, 1817,
James Bickerstaff, Mary Rutter,
St Peter, Liverpool
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN92-7QX

A number of their children were baptised at the same church.

Possible baptism...

Name: Jane Morris
Baptism Year: 1813; Baptism Month: Apr; Baptism Day: 21
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames: William; Mother's Forenames: Anne
Page: 2 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts
Data provider: Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

Image not available at present so can't check the father's occupation.

It looks good to me because Llanfwrog is pronounced Thlanvurog [u as in tub, og as in log], not very far from the Llanforog in the 1851, a North Wales accent with a tinge of scouse landing in an 'English' ear!

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Ll ... index.html

Looking for possible siblings, a search for Morris baptisms in Llanfwrog, 1814 +/- 10 years produced these with the same-named parents as for Jane....

Name: Robert Morris
Baptism Year: 1811; Baptism Month: Mar; Baptism Day: 20
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames:William; Mother's Forenames:Anne
Page: 5 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts

Name: Elizabeth Morris
Baptism Year: 1815; Baptism Month: Sep; Baptism Day: 20
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames: William; Mother's Forenames:Anne
Page:13 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts

Name: Margaret Morris
Baptism Year: 1818; Baptism Month: Oct; Baptism Day: 09
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames: William; Mothers Forenames: Anne
Page: 25 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts

Name: William Morris
Baptism Year: 1821; Baptism Month: Feb; Baptism Day: 06
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames: William; Mother's Forenames:Anne
Page: 34 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts

Name: John Morris
Baptism Year: 1824; Baptism Month: Feb; Baptism Day: 03
Place: Llanfwrog, Denbighshire
Father's Forenames: William; Mother's Forenames: Anne
Page: 48 - Record source: Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts

A possibility of this being the marriage, William Morris, Anne Morris

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCPY-QDT

RE:

Name: John Morris
Baptism Year: 1824; Baptism Month: Feb; Baptism Day: 03

His father was a butcher of Pen Y Bryn, Llanfwrog. Image available.

Ditto Elizabeth bapt 1815; Ditto Margaret bapt 1818; Ditto William bapt 1821!
Only the parents are noted on the baptism of Robert 1811.

Despite the image for Jane not being available, it's a very good bet it is the Jane who married Greaves and Bickerstaff.

Bertieone wrote:A possibility of this being the marriage, William Morris, Anne Morris

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCPY-QDT

Looks good to me. No specific church indicated so I assume it was Llanfwrog Parish Church.

Just another tidbit....

The name Llanfwrog literally means the Church [the Llan bit] of St Mwrog. The Welsh language has a 'mutation' condition which would change the Mwrog to 'fwrog' when used as a suffix. Hence Llanfair is Church of St Mair [Mary].

From: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Ll ... index.html
Church History
Ordnance Survey reference SJ 114578.
The church was founded in the seventh century by St. Mwrog. It was rebuilt during the Norman period, and re-dedicated to St. Mary. Having fallen into decay, it was extensively restored in 1869 / 1870, being re-opened on 24 June 1870. The tower was restored in 1906.

The Clwyd FHS website http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/ has a photograph of the church.
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/eglwysi/llanfwrog.htm

This is the only Lancs born Hugh Bickerstaff bn abt 1822 with a father James, labourer, in 1841:

HO107 - Piece: 564 - Book/Folio: 14/33 - Page: 58
Address: Eldon Street, Liverpool.
BICKERSTAFF, James 45 labourer Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, Mary 45 Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, James 20 labourer Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, Hugh 15 labourer Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, Nanny 9 Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, Thomas 13 Lancashire
BICKERSTAFF, Robert 5 Lancashire

Arieta, remember that in the 1841 Census ages of people over the age of 15 were to be rounded down to the next 0 or 5. So 49 and 47 etc would become 45, 23 would be 20 and so on. However, just to confuse us.... the rule wasn't always followed! If all the shown ages end in 5 or 0, then the rule probably was applied or it is coincidental.

Bert and DS: I am thrilled with the wonderful information you have found and forwarded to me. All such great possibilities. I will go to the websites indicated and look some more. Thank you so much for your efforts and your help.
Arleta