Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Does ANYONE alive remember the area of the courts situated between Everton Terrace and Netherfield Rd Sth, I have proof of the existence of the address but not one map nor street directory for the early 1900's has enabled me to pin down exactly where I want to find ? The Gores 1911 gives partial info on 1,3&5 court but not the house I want, unfortunately. The 1911 census has it listed as 2 "Town View" and a 1964 Daily Post & Echo Street Guide I have lists it as same (N-5).
Dont know if they had A-Z's in those days,even though I was there! I really dont remember them I feel really snookered now and dont know where else to look.
Any kind help p-l-e-a-s-e ?

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/L7.htm
I believe these maps are circa 1901, Town View not mentioned but from the streets you mention, Town View makes sense as it would in that area that has been made parkland now and gives you that glorious view over the town.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=everto ... 5,,0,-3.59

Sorry I know nothing of the area, I hope the link is of interest,

http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/netherfield-road-1927/

Bertieone wrote:Sorry I know nothing of the area, I hope the link is of interest,

http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/netherfield-road-1927/

Yes Thanks,I already have the same images (and a few more )
After studying the various maps of the area at various stages of development I believe that the court you see in the main photograph IS the place I am looking for. But I cant be 100% sure.
Of the three courts 1,3 & 5 it suggests that the centre one (from either end) is 3 ,and as the most detailed street map I have found shows that only the centre one had steps at both ends,I am almost certain of it ?
Wish I could confirm that though.

Could you be looking for Tudno View (St Tudno View) rather than Town View?


Blue

There's a Tudno View on this map:-






Blue

Yep thats one of the closest maps and you will see that 'Tudno' view is (as reasoned earlier) is at one end of three similar alleys and the centre one shows steps at BOTH ends ?
No it is definitely Town View and that is the address on the 1911 census return.
Thanks though,much appreciated.

MaryA wrote:http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/L7.htm
I believe these maps are circa 1901, Town View not mentioned but from the streets you mention, Town View makes sense as it would in that area that has been made parkland now and gives you that glorious view over the town.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=everto ... 5,,0,-3.59

Many Thanks MaryA, Yep thats my logic also seeing as how St Tudno View seems to be looking straight down China Street which on a very clear day and a stretch of the imagination, would show the cliffs of Wales ?
Well,Mr Atherton could see New Brighton from his lofty Villa atop St Georges Hill 70 years earlier, even before he built it I believe !
St Tudno has very strong links with Llandudno so who knows ?

The steps up to Town View would have been about here I guess ? (link didnt work!)

Almost directly looking down Prince Edwin St ??

Re Town View...?

I haven't found it yet in the 1911 Street Index. Can you post a couple of names and YoBs for the residents at that address. I would like to see the address as written and as entered in the Enumerator's RG78 Street Summary List.

Town View, DS,

RG14; Piece: 22530.

dickiesam wrote:Re Town View...?

I haven't found it yet in the 1911 Street Index. Can you post a couple of names and YoBs for the residents at that address. I would like to see the address as written and as entered in the Enumerator's RG78 Street Summary List.

As I said previously it would appear that this area has an alias and it doesnt help that there are only entries for the odd numbered houses in No 3 court, I want number 2.
Kellys (Gores) 1911 Street Index P 236 'Everton Terrace' = "1 court, 3 court and 5 court"

e.g court no.1 #49 Burns John = Laundry proprietor

court no.3 #51 Hughes Mrs. Mary Alice = Beer seller

court no.5 #69 Williams,George = Miller

The census page is here:

1911 census

2 Town View, Everton Terrace,

David Roberts, 33
Ann Roberts 43,
William Ellison, Stepson 16
Ann Roberts 6
George Roberts 1

Does this help?

Bertieone wrote:1911 census

2 Town View, Everton Terrace,

David Roberts, 33
Ann Roberts 43,
William Ellison, Stepson 16
Ann Roberts 6
George Roberts 1

Does this help?

I appreciate the info bertieone but I had already found that information some time ago.

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 089695.jpg)

What I want to be absolutely certain of, is that these addresses are one and the same place. On my mothers birth certificate (1912) her parents ('David' and Anne) gave the old 2 in 3 crt address ? Actually his name was not David at all but thats another story completely.
Quite an enigmatic search this one is turning out to be ?
Thank you everybody.

Thanks for the pointer Bert.

The Enumerator's Street Summary gives the following residents in Town View, Everton Terrace...
All private houses....
#1 = Mr Molyneux [4 persons]
#3 = Mr Porter [3 persons]
#s 5, 7 & 9 = Unoccupied
#11 = Mr McWilliams [4 persons]
#13 = Mrs Kelly [10 persons]

#2 = Mr Roberts [5 persons]
#4 = Mr Kelly [6 persons]
#6 = Mr Howard [6 persons]
also at
#6 = Mrs Murphy, lodger [4 persons]

Netherfield Road comes next on his list so it would appear Town View should run between Everton Terrace and Netherfield Road. There are 3 un-named 'streets' shown here running from Everton Terrace to Forge hill and Netherfield Road: http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/L7.htm

dickiesam wrote:Thanks for the pointer Bert.

The Enumerator's Street Summary gives the following residents in Town View, Everton Terrace...
All private houses....
#1 = Mr Molyneux [4 persons]
#3 = Mr Porter [3 persons]
#s 5, 7 & 9 = Unoccupied
#11 = Mr McWilliams [4 persons]
#13 = Mrs Kelly [10 persons]

#2 = Mr Roberts [5 persons]
#4 = Mr Kelly [6 persons]
#6 = Mr Howard [6 persons]
also at
#6 = Mrs Murphy, lodger [4 persons]

Netherfield Road comes next on his list so it would appear Town View should run between Everton Terrace and Netherfield Road. There are 3 un-named 'streets' shown here running from Everton Terrace to Forge hill and Netherfield Road: http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/L7.htm

Hi Dickiesam, yes that is exactly where I am focussing and as you say, "3 un-named streets", in fact they are effectively alleys and as the 1908 map shows (Link shown in other post) the most northerly one is Tudno View and as I postulated earlier, IF they are one and the same as "1,3 & 5 courts" it follows that Tudno View was either 1 or 5 court ? and the centre one must therefore,be 3 court ? Look again at the 1908 map and you can see that all 3 have steps internally at both ends. If you look at the brilliant photos (link to StreetsofLiverpool...(above) and carefully study the buildings, in it you can see that there are 10 front doors, (5 a side) and if you now look at the 1908 map ? There was in effect a mezzanine terrace running the length of the block frontage and is obvious on the photo. What is not so obvious is that there was access to that mezzanine from the rear as well so they may be small ladder blocks at the end of Courts 1 & 5? Court 3 which I believe was also Town View had the main steps down to Netherfield Rd Sth level. You have to bear in mind that at this point there was a height difference of more than 3 or 4 metres between Netherfield and Everton Terrace.
Yes it is Mr Roberts I am looking for and his name was not David (or Davia as the transcriber has logged it ?) but had the very distinctive moniker of Horatio Cogill Roberts, it is unmistakenly him and he declares his true name on my Mothers birth certificate, Ann was also NOT a Roberts but was still an Ellison. Her son William was also there (step-son to 'head') and it is really HIM that I seek as I believe him to be one of the glorious 'forgotten' dead of the disastrous Flanders campaign WW1. Virtually nothing survives of his existence other than the census and my long gone Mothers memories,it is almost like a conspiracy of fates to obliterate him from ever having been.
Even the only place known to the authorities at the time of the census does not want to be revealed ? Is it Town View or 2 in 3 court ?
My dream is to stand at his graveside or plaque in time for his centenary(whenever that is ?) and to show him that we SHALL always remember them,forgetting is no option.
I do get despondent at times, will I ever learn the truth in MY lifetime ?
I appreciate your help and am most grateful but I wish I could find a living person from Scottie or local (other than Cilla ) who would remember the area well enough to explain the way the court system was addressed.
Even thought of asking at local nursing homes in the area but most occupants were dispersed all over Merseyside during the high rise revolution that decimated those communities.

I have the following:

9th King's Liverpool Regimen
Ellison
330849
William
Lance-Corporal
Liverpool
31st July 1917
Previously reported wounded, now reported wounded and missing
3rd-October-1917

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casua ... %20WILLIAM

I have no additional information for him but I can say that the majority of soldiers who enlisted in the 9th King's resided in the Everton District.

Ken Lees may be able to give more information on this soldier

http://www.9thkings.co.uk/

Have you tried this site for maps of these courts?

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html

Copy and paste the following co-ordinates:

335516 391811

Scroll down the list of all available maps on the right and click on the 1891 map. You can do one zoom by clicking on the image.

The 1891 map has the top court as Court No 5, the middle one as Court No 3 and the bottom one as Court No 1.


Blue

Blue70 wrote:Have you tried this site for maps of these courts?

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html

Copy and paste the following co-ordinates:

335516 391811

Scroll down the list of all available maps on the right and click on the 1891 map. You can do one zoom by clicking on the image.

The 1891 map has the top court as Court No 5, the middle one as Court No 3 and the bottom one as Court No 1.


Blue

Thanks blue70 . Till now the best detailed map that I had found is the 'Godfrey' OS map for 1908 as I could only assume that the courts weren't built until 1900 sometime. Most early maps didnt even have the 'ragged'(Industrial) school detailed and that was there for quite a long time before it was developed completely. That became the police training 'academy' in the 40's I think ? Great that you have helped me confirm that the centre alley WAS Court #3 and therefore its now safe to assume that the 1927 photos of Netherfield Rd linked from a previous post are indeed of 3 court a.k.a Town View ?
Many Thanks,greatly appreciated

Katie wrote:I have the following:

9th King's Liverpool Regimen
Ellison
330849
William
Lance-Corporal
Liverpool
31st July 1917
Previously reported wounded, now reported wounded and missing
3rd-October-1917

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casua ... %20WILLIAM

I have no additional information for him but I can say that the majority of soldiers who enlisted in the 9th King's resided in the Everton District.

Ken Lees may be able to give more information on this soldier

http://www.9thkings.co.uk/

Thanks Katie,Again I was aware of this soldier some time ago,but was following another lead that was quite wrong (aah well!) I didnt really know where to go forward with that soldier except the new LRO when it opens (Hoorah !) on the 17th ?. Could this be the nightmare scenario I wonder, "missing feared dead" ? I will follow up on your suggestion for Ken Lees and see where it takes me,I will report back as and when and raise a new post in the 'military' section. Very many thanks

P.S Just read 'Promenade's post giving Joe Devereux's amazing synopsis of the 3rd battle of Ypres (29/7/1917) and learned just about everything I need to begin to accept that wherever William may lie,he will not be alone. See post on 'David Pagan' in military. Thank You so very,very much Joe.
And Thank you once again to all the 'posters' I now have a heck of a lot to absorb ?