Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I have hit one of those annoying 'brick walls'.

Isabella Barton married my great grandfather (Thomas Maddox) in 1872. I have their marriage certifcate and have traced Isabella through all the censuses from 1881 to her death in 1937. I know lots about her married life, have found out all about her children and been in touch with some of her grandchildren. I even have photos of her but I cannot find anything out about her before her marriage.

The marriage certificate has her father down as Robert Barton, a ship's carpenter - no indication whether he was still alive. Thomas's and Isabella's addresses are given as'Bevington Hill' and censuses suggest she was born about 1850 in Liverpool. I cannot trace any siblings or find out anything about Robert.

Can anyone help me demolish my brick wall?

Thanks in advance.
Glen

Hi Glen,
The lack of a birth around 1850 leads me to believe that Isabella may have been a little less forthcoming about her age and she was born before 1850 or some time later. It was not uncommon for a woman to either lose a few years if a marriage was in prospect, or gain a few years if it was to her advantage. For instance if she was pregnant. And once the fib was told it became the truth.

There are two births registered in Liverpool between 1845 and 1855...
Births Mar 1847: Barton Isabella W. Derby 20 1065
Births Sep 1855: Barton Isabella W. Derby 8b 401

I found the 1847 one in the 1871 census but her father was a William...
RG10 - Piece: 3817 - Folio: 116 - Page: 28
Address: More Lane, Everton, Liverpool. This is the home of:
SENIOR, Joseph Head 31 1840 Yorkshire
SENIOR, Sarah Elizth Wife 27 1844 Lancashire
SENIOR, Martha Alice Dtr 5 1866 Lancashire
SENIOR, William James Son 2 1869 Lancashire
SENIOR, George Son 0 1871 Lancashire
BARTON, William Father-In-Law 60 1811 Carpenter [? - not clear] Lancashire
SENIOR, William Brother 25 1846 Lancashire
JONES, Henry Lodger 29 1842 London
BARTON, Isabella Sister-In-Law 24 1847 Lancashire

Relationship confirmed by:
Birth Mar 1844: BARTON, Sarah Elizabeth - West Derby - 20 - 960

Thanks, DS.
Over the years, I've tracked down a few possible Isabellas but have tended to dismiss them as I haven't been able to make a link with the name Robert.

IGI gives a christening for an Isabella Barton at St Peter's on 15 March 1852 but parents were William and Alice. I found William on the 1861 census and he was a venetion blind maker which didn't seem to fit in with Robert being a ship's carpenter.

I've got birth certs. for:
Isabella born in Wavertree 1855 but her father was a stonemason called Henry
Isabella born in Toxteth 1856 but her father was a hammerman called William
Girl born in the Howard District 1854 but her father was a carter called John Barton

Interestingly, I can't find any record of a suitable Robert anywhere. I had considered whether she may have been born with a different surname or even first name and began looking for Robert but this drew a blank too.

All ideas welcome - this one has been a hard nut to crack over the years!

Glen

Hi Glen,
There's always the possibility that her birth wasn't registered. Up to the 1870s it was the responsibility of the Registrar to 'seek out' births from information gleaned from hospitals, priests, doctors and midwifes etc, and he was paid by 'the each'. Later it was incumbent on the mother to register the birth within 6 weeks, or a person present at the birth could do it if the mother was unable to do so.

As you say, perhaps she was registered with a different surname, perhaps out of wedlock. She might then have adopted her step-father's name when her mother married. There are unfortunately a number of scenarios and you may never know who she was.

I know what you mean, DS - I could be on a fruitless search with this one.

However, I'm puzzled by the fact that I cannot find any trace of Robert Barton, ships carpenter, even though he is likely to have been around for at least the 1841 and 1851 census. I've found references to a couple of marriages so perhaps I need to follow those up and see if anything strikes a chord.
I've found marriages of a Robert Barton in Liverpool in 1853 and in W. Derby in 1856 and another in Stockport in 1840, which I suppose I should follow-up - I guess one of them might have been a ship's carpenter or perhaps a joiner!

Also, I've not been able to find Isabella on either the 1861 or '71 censuses. Perhaps another pair of eyes can come across something I've missed.

Glen

Glen,

Something to be mindful of during your search, a Ships Carpenter would never describe himself as a Joiner, land based he may declare himself a Shipwright, and once a Shipwright was seagoing, he would then be declared a Ships Carpenter.

A ship's carpenter would probably be seagoing thereby missing censuses and Robert could have died shortly after Isabella's birth, so might only have appeared in the 1841 if he was ashore. It is also possible she didn't know her father's name so she could have used an uncle's name and occupation or other male relative on her marriage. Come across that sort of fiction several times.

There's also the possibility that Isabella only thought she was born in Liverpool.....
Births Jun 1851: BARTON Isabella Wirral 19 400
Unfortunately I could find a Cheshire baptism to find a father's name.

Thanks for your comments re: ship's carpenter - I hadn't thought about him being away at sea. I guess I assumed he worked on the docks. Would I be right to assume, therefore, that if Robert Barton was indeed a ship's carpenter, this would have been a skilled trade and he is not likely to turn up as a labourer somewhere?

Any ideas where else I can look for Robert Barton? I know what you mean, DS, about him not necessarily being Isabella's father (I have a case where an ex-father-in-law is named as the bride's father - that one took a bit of sorting out!) but presumably he must have been someone.

(Also, Bert and DS, you may be interested to know that, thanks to your previous comments re: Catherine Devlin, I was able to track down her maternal grandparents and identify some of her mother's siblings. It took me back to 1789 so thank you both very much!)

Glen

Hi Glen,

A Shipwright/Ships Carpenter are most certainly skilled trades, having served at least a 5 year apprenticeship. It is possible a Ships Carpenter may have been recorded as seamen or mariner, especially if who ever was doing the recording wasn't to particular.

There are some MN records for 4 Robert Bartons, born in or near Liverpool and around the right age. None specifically refer to him as a Ship's carpenter, but might be worth reviewing. All are on the National Archives site.

Barton, Robert age = 20 - YoB = 1821 - Bn Liverpool; Series: BT112 - Date range:1841-1844; Piece #: 3
Barton, Robert - Bn Southport - Series: BT114 - Date range: 1845-1854 - Piece #: 2

Barton, Robert - Bn 31 - Dec - 1822 at Southport; Series: BT113; Date range: 1845-1854; Piece #: 18
Barton, Robert - Age: 22; YoB 1834; Bn Liverpool; Series: BT116; Date range: 1853-1857; Piece #: 5

Hi DS.

Sorry I've not responded to this posting before now but I'm afraid I've not yet had a chance to follow these up. In fact, I've never followed up sea records before ans so I'm not sure how to go about it! Could you advise please?

Also, I'm about to post a new topic which also involves ships so perhaps your advice could help me with that quesry too.

Regards,
Glen

Gwebb1 wrote:Hi DS.

Sorry I've not responded to this posting before now but I'm afraid I've not yet had a chance to follow these up. In fact, I've never followed up sea records before ans so I'm not sure how to go about it! Could you advise please?

Also, I'm about to post a new topic which also involves ships so perhaps your advice could help me with that quesry too.

Regards,
Glen

If you subscribe to Findmypast there's a good chance those MN records are online there.
If you don't subscribe have a search anyway and purchase credits to view interesting search results particularly if they match the NA results. Alternatively, go to the NA site http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ and track them down in their MN Archive.

Many thanks - I'll have a go and let you know if I have any luck.

Regards,
Glen