Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi
I am trying to track the birth record of twin girls Louisa and Frances. In the 1891 census, age 5 they live with John and Ellen Wood (sometimes recorded as Woods). I had thought they were John's daughters even though he was only 22 but not I think that John and Ellen were married in 1890 (1911 census they were married 20 years and I can find a record of a marriage between John and Ellen Moyner which is probably them) and she came with the girls but I cannot find a birth record for the girls. As they are twins I though it would be reasonably straight forward - I just needed to find two registrations for the same period with matching surnames. Louisa was already a mystery as she was brought up by her 'aunty' Frances Findlay who married Joseph Gerard. Finding Louisa and Frances in the 1891 was a breakthrough - but I am stumped again. and not helped by finding that Aunty Frances had been married off to a different spouse in other people's trees on Ancestry - but I sent for the certificates so know it is my Frances Wood/Findlay/Gerard that I am on trail of.

Grateful for any advice/help.

Cheryl

Hi Cheryl, and Welcome,

Its possible they are not twins, Ellen Moynor, I think, could have brought Frances to the marriage,

Frances Moynor, Sept Qtr, 1885, Liverpool, 8b 128,
On the census as Frances M.

Louisa Woods, Sept Qtr, 1886, Liverpool, 8b 118, John's daughter or John/Ellen's daughter, pre marriage.

It appears that Frances Findlay (nee Wood) married Samuel Kendrick Findlay, 1887, Liverpool, 8b 262.
Samuel is recorded as being married on the 1891 census and yet single for the following 2 censuses. Did a divorce take place? or if Frances married again, was it legal?

Catholic Baptism,
Frances Moynor,
Link will work if signed in to Ancestry,
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... turnRecord
Note of marriage attached.


Name:
Francisca Moynor
Birth Date:
26 Sep 1885
Baptism Date:
5 Oct 1885
Parish:
St Nicholas
Mother's Name:
Helena Moynor

My Latin is not what it should be, I thought the marriage took place in 1914, perhaps mistake,


England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
about Frances Wood
Name:
Frances Wood
Spouse Surname:
Michaels
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1912
Registration District:
West Derby
Inferred County:
Lancashire
Volume Number:
8b
Page Number:
107

On Free BMD, can't find spouse.

The Marriage of Joseph Gerard/Frances Findlay
Birkenhead 1896, 8a 921,

Cheryl,
Have you found them on a census together? can you please post details if you have.

Hiya Bert
Lancs BMD has the marriage of Ellen Wood to William H Michaels
1912. W.Dby

Tina wrote:Hiya Bert
Lancs BMD has the marriage of Ellen Wood to William H Michaels
1912. W.Dby

Thanks Tina,

Frances Wood, (Ellen, Typo)

Thank you both for your contributions.

Bert - good suggestion on the girls. As they were the same age/surname in the 1891 Census I jumped to the conclusion they were twins. But actually if they were not it would make more sense. As I say Louisa was brought up by Frances and her husband Joseph Gerard (sometimes has two 'r' s in the middle) whilst the other girl Frances stayed with John and Ellen Wood.

In the 1891 census Frances Findlay (the older) was boarding with her brother John and her status is widow - which doesn't fit with you finding Samuel alive and well.

I did find Joseph and Frances in the 1901 census living in Great Homer street near Paddy's market but cannot find the record again at the moment. I'll keep looking and let you know.

Hi Cheryl,

The 1891 census, RG12; Piece: 2989; Folio: 25; Page: 43,

Frances Findlay is recorded as Married, the enumerator writes Wid on a couple of occasions for widows elsewhere on the form.

Hi Bert

I've just read it back and yes you are right. I think because the wedding certificate to Joseph Gerard is 'widow' I didn't look properly.

More shocking to follow the trail of Samuel and see that he is alive and well. As he changed his status for census 1891 married to 1901 single, hopefully they did get divorced (though wouldn't explain why she claimed to be a widow if everything was above board). Frances and Joseph were married at the register office, but surely they would have asked to see the death certificate?

Hi Bert

Louisa Woods, Sept Qtr, 1886, Liverpool, 8b 118, John's daughter or John/Ellen's daughter, pre marriage.

I was just checking for the Louisa Woods birth record 1886 Jul/Aug/Sept through Ancestry and can't find it. Should it be in the FMBD or did you locate through another source. Wanted to double check before sending for the certificate.

Is it just me?

Sorry Cheryl,

Can't see the Woods for the Wood.




Births Sep 1885
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wood Louisa Liverpool 8b 118

If Frances brought her up, chances are, Louisa was born to her before she married Samuel.

Well Bert I've bitten the bullet and sent for the birth certificate. I'll let you know when it arrives.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

Good luck Cheryl with birth certificate.
I doubt these people could afford a divorce, it cost a great deal of money
back then.
Samuel is with his mother Elizabeth wid 74 at 11 Mason St Edge Hill, single labr
also bro Wm with his wife and kiddies in the census 10 yrs after 1901.
There's a death for Sml K in Lpool N 3rd qtr 1938 aged 74yrs.

It's unlikely they would have afforded a divorce, many people merely claimed to be widowed, or even still single when marrying bigamously .... and were not found out!!

However you could do a search on the National Archives site to see if one turns up
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... ivorce.htm

Thanks for the lead, doesn't look like they did get divorced. They certainly didn't have much money so guess they couldn't afford it and it wouldn't have been a priority.

Will be interesting to see if I have sent for the right certificate and who Louisa's mother was. I suspect Frances's older sister Elizabeth as the 1911 census records no children born to Frances.

If only I had a time machine.

Update

The birth certificate does look 'my' Louisa.

Sadly she was born in the workhouse. What I'd really like now is to be able to check the workhouse records to see if Frances was also born in the workhouse albeit to Ellen.

If Ellen (Moyner) was in the workhouse at the same time she could have called her Frances after her friend Frances.

I'll raise a separate query though so as not to confuse threads.

It will be fine to continue with your query here and it saves linking so that all the facts are to hand.

The Workhouse records are held at the Liverpool Record Office.

Hi,

Not sure if this has any significance, Re: Workhouse.

The baptism link and next page.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... turnRecord

Anderson Baby, 2nd October, Mother, Sarah Joanne Anderson, Godmother, Maria Roche.

Roche Baby, 24 Sept, Mother, Maria Roche, Godmother, Helena Moynor.

Moynor Baby, 26 Sept, Mother, Helena Moynor, Godmother, Sara Joanne Anderson.

Connor Baby, 23 Sept, Mother, Maria Connor, Godmother, Elizabetha Cushton.

Cushton Baby, 28 Sept, Mother, Elizabetha Cushton, Godmother, Maria Connor.

Could all of the girls have been in the Workhouse together?