Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I live in Australia and have hit that brick wall. My great, great, great grandfather, William Sim lived in Liverpool for most of his life; 1841 Grenville St North, 1851 Great Oxford St and he died at 16 Silvester St on the 3rd April, 1879, (although I cant find those streets, except Silvester). I have tracked through the census records and all consistently mention that he and his wife (Elizabeth Miller) were born in the “early 1800’s” in Scotland (as was their 2nd child, Thomas). They were married in Manchester Cathedral on the 13th Dec, 1824, and I have found the names of witnesses quite hard to read. But I have had no luck in tracking down the Scottish origins. I had thought that there may have been a hope in tracking down a monumental inscription, which may have said ‘from Aberdeen or Glasgow or ??”, but in any case I would love to know where they are buried in Liverpool. Our family folklore is that we have Scottish origins and one Victorian death certificate did give a birth as Glasgow, but I subsequently found that to be incorrect for that relative anyway. I have bought quite a few certificates and have my tree on Ancestry under “Sim Family”.
So, I am trying to find any details about their possible grave sites in Liverpool and if very lucky, any information on their births in Scotland.

The witnesses to the marriage are
Rob Wilton - he appears as a witness on a lot of marriages so is probably something to do with the church
George Miller - she is probably related to Elizabeth - maybe her father

Do you have William in the 1861 census?

For the crew,

1841, HO107, Piece, 563, Book 2
1851, HO107, Piece 2177 Folio 102 Page28
1871 RG10, Piece 3761 Folio 55 Page 25

I think this is 1861,

RG9 Piece, 2658, Folio 173 Page 28

William Tim 59
Elizabeth Tim 60
John Tim 25
George Tim 22
Elizabeth Tim 12
Martha Demane 16

Great Oxford Street was the old name for Silvester Street.


Blue

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Just confirming a search of Gibsons Epitaphs has not shown any result, sorry.

Grenville Street is parallel to Duke Street, http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... az/R10.htm this is a 1901 map, although the street is still is there now.

And Silvester Street http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/K9.htm

Hi Simfam13,
Do you have William and Elizabeth's fathers' names from their marriage? On Scotland's People http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ there are 13 parish records for the baptism of a William Sim between 1800 and 1804. I chose those dates because William's 1879 death registration gives him as being 77 years old. The purchase of credits is required to see the actual record so you really need a parent's name to save money and time in case you have to spread the net wider. 1798 to 1806 gives 24 hits!

No fathers' names on the 1824 marriage record.


Blue

Wow....it was exciting to wake up to so many posts. Thank you to you all. So much new information to digest, albeit I am at work!
Rob Wilton as a witness was great news, if he was a "professional witness". I will assume that George Miller was probably the father of Elizabeth, particularly as there was a grandson George Miller Sim, so that is the only potential clue I have to the parents of William and Elizabeth. I have tried Scotsland People, but felt a bit baffled with the info, as I wasn't sure where to go next with the hits. The new names of streets was great, together with the maps. I did note that Silvester St had a Presbyterian Church on the corner, so I could imagine that would have been where my ancestors worshipped. I shall look to see if the church still exists and if not, where their records may have gone. Thanks also for the review of the epitahs....worth a try!
I feel reinvigorated! Thank you again.....plenty of new leads for me.

Did you see on Family Search that some of the children were baptised at St. Peter's C of E in Church Street and others baptised at St. Andrew's Presbyterian? St. Andrew's was a Scottish church:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_ ... _Liverpool


Blue

Re Scotland's People hits for the birth of William Sim....

There's a possibility he named one of his sons, John and George, after his father. Worth a shot?

dickiesam wrote:Re Scotland's People hits for the birth of William Sim....

There's a possibility he named one of his sons, John and George, after his father. Worth a shot?

Re: Naming son after Fathers,

On all census returns the birth date of William and Elizabeth are consistent, 1802 and 1801, and William's age at death shows born 1802.
Searching for William's father using sons names, 1802, only 1 hit for George and William, none for the others.
Doing the same for Elizabeth, 1801, 2 hits for John and 1 for William, none for the others.

If you do a search for William's father, you might get lucky and hopefully William learnt his trade as a joiner from his dad.

The possible baptisms I found on family search are

Robert 5 June 1825 at Manchester Cathedral
John born 10 July 1832 christened 26 Aug 1832 at Mount Pleasant Presbyterian Liverpool

William 10 January 1836 at Liverpool (possibly St peter)

George Millar Sim born 3 Oct 1838 and christened 2 December 1838 at St Andrew Presbyterian Liverpool

I found Millar interesting as I know that is a Scottish name so perhaps Miller is Millar?

The missing christenings are for Thomas in about 1827 and Adam in about 1831 perhaps these were born in Scotland or were christened at a different church in Liverpool or Manchester.

I learnt from a submitted tree on family search that Thomas died 30 December 1865 at Prince Edwin Street killed by accidental injury to the body and George died on 22 November 1864.

Hilary,

The 1871 census has Adam born in Durham, England. perhaps baptised there.

Between 1820 and 1830, only one Thomas Sim born in Scotland, Fife, 11/2/1827, with a father William Sim,
Unfortunately with a mother named Janet Rodger.

Hi
Just to put something out there, if the family were Scottish, there was a naming pattern in Scotland which some families stuck to, some followed it partly and some didn't follow at all. In my experience of my Scottish family history they did stick roughly to the pattern.

1st son named after father's father
2nd son named after mother's father
3rd son named after father
1st daughter named after mother's mother
2nd daughter named after father's mother
3rd daughter named after mother

Although looking at the naming pattern and the list of children it doesn't appear to follow with this family!

The support that I have received is amazing.....thank you all again. Clearly I have a lot to learn and my issue is time (like everybody!), as I am 51 and work and other things, like my teenage'ish children seem to take up my spare time (my lame excuse here, but my son was selected in the Aust U23 crew yesterday!!), but this weekend I will have a good bash and look over and use all the new information I have.
Even the little snippet on Scottish naming patterns is helpful. Given the census records have been consistently filled out for each 10 year period, I am hoping that the family went back to Scotland just prior to Thomas being born and that his birth record may also give me a clue to the Scottish origins. I haven't used Family Search much and clearly I should. It is a cold winter here, so my study beckons. Cheers

I have now looked at family search again, which is totally different to the one I knew. Thanks Hilary on the George Millar Sim scenario, as I have his birth and death certificates which clearly show "Miller", but I now see from Family Search that "Millar" maybe something for me to watch out for. Cheers

I assume you have this... Might help find a burial.

Death: SIM, Elizabeth
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1875; Dec qtr
Age at death: 75
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 19

Yes, thank you for that info. I have purchased quite a few birth and death certificates of my main players, but the info has been somewhat limited, but still nice to have. While I have relied on Ancestry in more recent times, I think I will be spending a lot of the coming weekend on Family Search. Cheers

When many of us first began our research familysearch was a prime site for research, but with Ancestry and Findmypast uploading ever more databases I think the old faithfuls sometimes get overlooked, it's good to go back to them as even they have more details than they used to. Despite our moans about problems and trying to get used to the new way of searching, they can be commended for putting up such a great free site for us, and their errors are no more than those found on Ancestry, and we are paying for that site!