Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello again folks. I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this, but I'm having difficulty finding a couple of record index numbers to enable me to obtain birth certificates, and wonder if you can help?
I only have scanty info, but here goes-

Elizabeth Davies b.01/07/1868, Liverpool. Father-Thomas Davies mother-Mary Power.

Michael Campbell .c1861, Liverpool. Father-Michael Campbell .

Is this too little to help?

If you have an exact date of birth as you do for Elizabeth, you don't need the index references. Order online, choose the option to state that you don't have the index and give the date of birth and parents names and if they find the certificate they will send it to you. However, unless you have absolute confirmation of the parents names from, say the baptism, then I wouldn't give both parents as a match.

What religion was Michael Campbell? There is an RC baptism at St Nicholas for a Michael Campbell, born 2 February, baptised 5 February, 1861, parents Michael and Maria Campbell (nee Mackintosh), godparents Franciscum Donnelly and Anna Appleyard.

There is another possible child to this couple - Mary Ellen born 30 June 1853 baptised St Nicholas 3 July, parents Michael Campbell and Mary McIntyre (his wife), godparents Michael and Mary Kelly. It's possible that one or the other of the names for the mother has been written incorrectly by the priest - it's also possible that they may have no connection at all.

You really need to see more of the whole picture of the family by means of checking the censuses around that time and also the later ones, and if necessary confirming that you have the correct child by means of certificates for more than one child. I'm guessing you may have got the details of Michael from a marriage certificate.

You can check the birth indexes on various sites, such as http://freebmd.org.uk/ and subscription sites such as Ancestry.co.uk and Findmypast amongst others. The mother's name however, is not noted in the indexes, but if you were positive about it then it could be used as a reference checking when ordering from the GRO.

There are also transcriptions, submitted by volunteers on http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/ where in some areas the mother's maiden name has been included, however this is not the case in the usual indexes.

Hello MaryA, thank you for that. Re the Campbell query,as you correctly guessed, I only have the father's name from his marriage cert, but extensive searching on my behalf (bearing in mind I'm not widely experienced) has only found the names you came up with that match the area (Toxteth).I'll check the 1851 later today,but I have the family in 1861 (Michael snr,Mary,Mary Ellen, and Michael) and again in 1871, all dates tallying on both. In 1861 the birthplace of the parents are simply-Ireland, but in 1871-Newry,which is in line with my father's belief that there was a Northern Irish connection somewhere along the line.
I don't know what to do,everything points to these being the family, but how else can I make sure?

Without my opening the censuses in question, do you mean that you definitely have the family with Mary Ellen and Michael both with the birth dates I have given for the baptisms?

If so I would suggest that you approach the GRO with the date of birth, and the parents names, this should ensure that you get the correct one.

5 June, 1847 St Peter Priory
Michael Campbell married Mary McIntyre
Parents Patrick Campbell and Mick? McIntyre
His address ?anby Street
Her address Ranelagh Street
Witnesses John Almond and Agnes Weir


Can you give the details for young Michael's marriage.

Elizabeth Davies b.01/07/1868, Liverpool. Father-Thomas Davies mother-Mary Power.

Michael Campbell .c1861, Liverpool. Father-Michael Campbell .

Is this too little to help?

MaryA has already given you some options and this is a way to get a GRO search done for either or both.

When you go to the GRO site http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO Index Reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Even if you do know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc], don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents if known. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee.

Hi MaryA,on the 1861 census for Pellew St, L/pool- Michael snr is 1823 b Ireland/Mary 1826 Ireland/ Mary E 1854 liverpool/Michael 3 months Liverpool.

1871(misplaced address) census L/pool- Michael 1826 Newry Ireland/Mary 1826 Newry/ Mary Ellen 1855 Liverpool/ Michael1861 Liverpool.

I was working towards Patrick and Mary McIntyre (after I was satisfied that I had Michael 1861), would you , in my position, feel justified in proceeding on these lines? I can't find any likely alternatives and I value your judgement (and the other members who have previously helped).

dickiesam wrote:

Elizabeth Davies b.01/07/1868, Liverpool. Father-Thomas Davies mother-Mary Power.

Michael Campbell .c1861, Liverpool. Father-Michael Campbell .

Is this too little to help?

MaryA has already given you some options and this is a way to get a GRO search done for either or both.

When you go to the GRO site http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO Index Reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Even if you do know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc], don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents if known. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee.

Hi Dickiesam, I've made a note of the above and will do this when I go for the certs, thank you for your help in this.

Not sure enough about things to give an opinion. Please can you give the full details, including witnesses for young Michael's marriage.

At present you have enough information from the marriages and baptisms online - handy that they are RC religion which gives mother's maiden name - that you can accept this family for your file whilst continuing to search/research for either corroboration or otherwise. This doesn't always come quickly, some of us have waited years for a confirmation that we have the right person, but don't give up, it will come, especially as you have asked some great people on here for help.

MaryA wrote:Not sure enough about things to give an opinion. Please can you give the full details, including witnesses for young Michael's marriage.

Married St Nicholas,Liverpool 15/07/1883. Grooms age-22 yrs, bachelor, occ-painter, residence- Ainsworth St, L/pool,father's name-Michael Campbell, fathers profession-Labourer.
Spouse- Mary Jane Mason,20 yrs, spinster,residence- Ainsworth St, L/pool,father's name-John Mason,father's occ-labourer.
Witnessed by=Thomas 'Allen'?,Margaret Johnson.

Looking all around the subject often gives additional clues.

Checked the 1871 census for Mary Jane, who was in Ainsworth Street with family, including father John who was at that time a painter. RG10; Piece: 3781; Folio: 39; Page: 16

Checked the 1881 census, Mary Jane isn't at home with mother Ann who is now widowed but has daughter Ellen and son Richard still at home. Richard is a Painter.

I can't find either in the 1881 census, have you? I was curious to know what Michael's occupation was then as the connection of "painter" is good, also where they were both living would be useful, and reference, does anybody know how to search for a street name in the 1881 census now that both Ancestry and familysearch seem to have stopped this facility?

I have Ancestry and found it difficult. 26 Freeman street is an example. This is were my great grandmother supposedly lived when she had Jane Helen. Problem was I found the number was missing in Freeman street then. I went back to 1891 using the reference and districts for 1901 and found it was then inhabited. I tried going back further with the same references but they were not the same and ended up reading a whole census .

I know I confuse myself with the information I collect.......but surely with a census the reference to that street/road should remain constant .

If anyone has a way of tracing just an address on ancestry I would love to know I have driven myself batty searching each page

Sue H wrote:I have Ancestry and found it difficult. 26 Freeman street is an example. This is were my great grandmother supposedly lived when she had Jane Helen. Problem was I found the number was missing in Freeman street then. I went back to 1891 using the reference and districts for 1901 and found it was then inhabited. I tried going back further with the same references but they were not the same and ended up reading a whole census .

I know I confuse myself with the information I collect.......but surely with a census the reference to that street/road should remain constant .

If anyone has a way of tracing just an address on ancestry I would love to know I have driven myself batty searching each page

Hi Sue,
One can do a street/address search on Findmypast. It is a basic option alongside person search. #26 Freeman Street is missing from the 1901 Summary Page and it hasn't been marked as uninhabited. I'd say it should have been and a mistake was made transferring the data from the Household returns. If you know it was inhabited on the 31st of March 1901, then there's been a slip between eye and pen and we have a missing return.

In 1891 it is marked as Uninhabited, but it isn't in any earlier census. My thinking was initially that a street was renamed Freeman because it has been there a long time. However, St Dunstan's C of E church is located at the southern end of Freeman St, between it and adjacent Bective Street. But Bective Street doesn't appear until the 1891 either so that whole area could have been a new development around the church which was built between 1886 and 1889.

To support my hypothesis [ ] the two streets on either side of Freeman and Bective, Fearnside and Casterton, also don't appear until 1891.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_ ... _Liverpool

There are street indexes for some of the censuses http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... et+indexes

Unfortunately there hasn't ever, I believe, been one for the 1881 census mainly because the familysearch site gave the addresses and when Ancestry used their indexing they were able to also use the address search.

Findmypast - the co.uk edition also has an address search.

Thanks for popping in DS, any chance of the reference for Ainsworth Street please?

MaryA wrote:Looking all around the subject often gives additional clues.

Checked the 1871 census for Mary Jane, who was in Ainsworth Street with family, including father John who was at that time a painter. RG10; Piece: 3781; Folio: 39; Page: 16

Checked the 1881 census, Mary Jane isn't at home with mother Ann who is now widowed but has daughter Ellen and son Richard still at home. Richard is a Painter.

I can't find either in the 1881 census, have you? I was curious to know what Michael's occupation was then as the connection of "painter" is good, also where they were both living would be useful, and reference, does anybody know how to search for a street name in the 1881 census now that both Ancestry and familysearch seem to have stopped this facility?

I've not found them either in 1881, but in 1891, they're in Linden Street, Liverpool (Toxteth).As to his occupation, I'm fairly sure he was in the painting trade (but can't put my hands on some relevant notes at the moment) as all three of his sons were (and my father, and also myself over the years).

MaryA wrote: Thanks for popping in DS, any chance of the reference for Ainsworth Street please?

Ainsworth Street? No problem.....

1901 - RG13 Piece: 3416 Folio: 135 Page: 7
1891 - RG12 Piece 2913 Folio 121 Page 1
1881 - RG11 Piece: 3620 Folio: 68 Page: 12
1871 - RG10 Piece: 3781 Folio: 108 Page: 1

The street isn't indexed in any earlier census in Liverpool.

Thanks DS. I will have a look later this morning, it's just the 1881 I was interested in as Mary Jane was at that address in 1871 and although her mother had moved, both she and Michael gave that address in 1883, so here's hoping.

Red Tom - The painter reference is from the details of his marriage that you gave, it would seem logical that perhaps he worked with Mary Jane's father or brother and met her this way.