Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I've spent a good few years on and off looking for this man. I believe he is the reason for me having the same surname, though I don't believe he is a blood relation, he is the closest I have to a great great grandfather on this side.

He has ties to Liverpool (Toxteth, and Walton on the Hill), and I've tried to find out as much as I can through online sources, but I think I may need to take a trip to Liverpool (I live in London) to find out more. I'm hoping someone on here can advise on where I might be able to find more information? If I can work out a rough plan it might make a trip more successful.

One of the current mysteries surrounding him is the identity of Annie (Nurse) JOHNS, his first wife, that I only know about because he shares his grave with her. I'm trying to find information about her, or about William and his time in Liverpool. I don't know yet whether Annie is Australian or from Liverpool originally. I also don't know if she is a hospital nurse, workhouse nurse, or a nurse that looked after children.

This is a rather complex set of circumstances so the easiest way to describe it is chronologically. The name Annie pops up a few times, but as you'll see, most of them can be ruled out.

1858, William John is born to William John (Inspector of Mines) and Mary Evans, in Ambleston, Pembrokeshire, Wales.

1863, "Nurse Annie", born around this year, according to death record.

1865, Annie Jane Bentick is born in Buninyong, Ballarat, Victoria, Australia, to William Bentick and Mary Anne Gilmore, Former convicts from Suffolk and Northern Ireland, respectively.

1869, Ellin/Ellen John, apparently William's only sibling, is born in Maesteg, Glamorganshire, Wales.

1871, They are still living in Maesteg.

1872, William John Snr dies.

1875, Mary John remarries, to Evan Howell, a Butcher in Maesteg.

1876, Annie Jane Howell is born, a step sister for William and Ellen.

First arrival in Liverpool:

1881, Evan Howell dies. William John is a Shopman Butcher, having apparently having inherited the trade from his stepfather, currently boarding in Vine Street, Liverpool.

It is presumed that sometime between this date and 1901 he goes to Australia due to him being missing in 1891 census, and because of what happens next. There are a couple of possible matches in 1886 (Sorata) and 1887 (Silverdale) for his arrival in Australia.

Events in Australia:

1888, Millicent May Bentick is born to (Annie) Jane Bentick, father unknown.

1890, James Bentick is born to Annie Jane Bentick, Fitzroy, Victoria, Australia, father unknown.

1891, James Bentick has died, South Yarra, Victoria, Australia.

1892, William Johns, a Butcher, is living in Richmond, Victoria, Australia. If it's the same man, he has apparently added an S to his surname.

1892, Eileen Bentick is born to Annie Jane Bentick, in Richmond, Victoria, Australia, father unknown.

Dec 1893, Annie Jane Bentick dies in her sleep at her employer's home. The newspaper reports mention that Annie Jane was a widow. The death certificate reports a rupture and haemorrhage, and also mentions daughters Ruby and Eileen.

Aug 1894, Eileen Bentick, having been taken into care (Children's Registers of State Wards) a few months earlier, dies. The death is reported by Annie Reilly, an Authorised Agent, of 18 Bidey Street, East Prahran. Also found at that address 2 years later, is James Reilly.

Back in Liverpool, the next known date:

1901, William Johns, Butcher, is living in Toxteth, Liverpool with "Ruby Johns", whose age and place of birth match the aforementioned Millicent/Ruby Bentick. He is apparently married, but the wife is not present on the night of the census.

In 1904, Annie Johns of King Street, Liscard, dies of fever in an infectious diseases hospital in Wallasey, Cheshire. Presumably TB? She leaves £500+ to her husband William Johns, Butcher. The transcription on the grave suggests she was a Nurse. Death record suggests she was 41, making her born in 1863.

In 1906, William remarries, his marriage indicates he is a widower, to Laura Louisa Drew (nee Bolton).

In 1911, Ruby has left, possibly working as a maid in Warwickshire according to the census, if it's the same Ruby Johns. William is living with Laura Johns, though William isn't actually present on the night of the census. He is possibly boarding in London.

In 1913, Ruby's "last known whereabouts" according to solicitor's request for information in 1947.

In 1918, Ruby Johns has actually moved to London, and had a child, Jack Gordon Johns, father unknown. Working as a barmaid in Central London.

In 1926, Ruby Johns marries Edward Harold Hickman in Holborn, London. She claims to be a widow, and her father is listed as William Bentick (Deceased), a Butcher.

In 1928, Laura Johns dies, Walton on the Hill.

In 1943, Ruby Hickman nee Johns dies suddenly in Walthamstow, East London, at the home of her son, Jack Gordon Johns, who has married and has a couple of young toddlers of his own.

In 1947, William Johns dies, in Walton on the Hill, and leaves part of his estate to Ruby Johns aka Millicent May Bentick, and to his step daughter Laura Last (nee Drew), daughter of Laura Louisa Bolton's first marriage. And also to his step sister Annie Jane Davies (nee Howell). A newspaper article enquires about the whereabouts of Ruby Johns, last heard of in 1913 where she apparently lived in Leeds.

In 1962, Edward Harold Hickman dies, leaving his estate to Jack Gordon Johns.

Sources:

Inscription of gravestone indication occupation of Nurse, and confirmation of burials:

http://www.medialinkuk.co.uk/cemetery/? ... paged=2149
http://www.toxtethparkcemetery.co.uk/db ... &section=E

Information relating to probates and all other census/death/birth records available through other sites like ancestry.co.uk.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Phew that's a lot of detail to take in, just wanted to make this quick post to let you know that you haven't been ignored, just that it might take a bit of time to get our heads around all this.

Hi Andrew,Welcome.
As Mary said, thats a lot of detail. However, I can testify that if anyone can help you uncover more you have come to the right place. Good Luck.
If you do find it necessary to come to Liverpool you will get a warm welcome I'm sure.

Hello Andrew and welcome,
Just some thoughts....
Have you found William John, Annie John and Ruby on any incoming passenger lists, arriving from Australia? I suspect the link between those three is down-under. I haven't found a marriage in England and Wales for them and it appears from your post that Ruby [aka Millicent] was illegitimate and her mother died in 1893.

So, somehow, in 1901 William is in Liverpool with Ruby. He is married and she is listed as 'daughter' on the census but almost certainly step-daughter or foster-daughter. And there's a marriage somewhere of William John(s) to an Annie [perhaps Reilly?].

When Annie Jane Bentick died in 1893 what happened to Ruby/Millicent? She was only 5 years old. And what was an Authorised Agent, the office or occupation of Annie Reilly? Did she take in both Ruby and James Bentick, and foster them?

For the crew here, to avoid ploughing the same ground... there's a topic on this subject from May 2012 here, with info images: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... =597228.40

And much more recently [July 2013] here: http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.johns/2338/mb.ashx

Hi, thank you for taking a look. Those threads are indeed the remnants of previous research into this family. Some of it is confirmed fact, some of it is my guesswork, and some of it I've since been able to find a little more information to make the guesses more likely. The info presented above is the most established set of facts that I've been able to confirm.

I am hoping there will be some form of directories, newspapers or other items in the Liverpool area that might mention William, being a butcher in the area for some time I hoped he'd have left some form of footprint, but I'm yet to discover any form of trade information, obituary, or other information about him other than what is presented above. The information may exist offline, which is why I've not found it yet.

To clarify the questions posed above:

1) I've not found William Johns, or Annie Johns or Ruby/Millicent May on any incoming passenger lists. The closest I came was a William and Miss Johns of correct age, however they arrived from Cape Colony and he was a merchant. It's possible they came back to the UK via South Africa, but it's also likely I'm looking up the wrong thing or the information is badly transcribed. It would help if I could narrow the window for the return journey, but at best I can place it after December 1893 when Annie Bentick dies, and possibly closer to May 1894 when Ruby's sister is left in care, but it could be any time between then and the 1901 census.

2) The gravestone indicates his first wife was a nurse named Annie. Annie Reilly is definitely a possibility, but I can't confirm whether she left Australia, either as Annie Johns or Annie Reilly. James Reilly I am guessing is her brother, father or husband, depending on who she was living with in 1894. I've not had much luck confirming her family yet, this might help determine her movements.

3) "When Annie Jane Bentick died in 1893 what happened to Ruby/Millicent? She was only 5 years old." Ruby was 5, her sister Ellen was 2. James had died before the mother, so James Bentick is not James Reilly. Ellen didn't go into care for a few months after her mother died, so I presume someone was looking after her. Ruby was never mentioned in the care records. I believe an Authorised agent was the term given to the carer/foster parent, which fits with the idea of her being a "nurse".

My initial guesses were:

1) William was in a relationship with Annie Jane Bentick, and could be the natural father of Ellen (perhaps named after his sister Eileen), who came to take care of Ruby as his own. He decides to return to Liverpool and leaves Ellen in care (would he really do this?). He meets "Annie" when he returns to Liverpool.

2) William is in a relationship with Ann Reilly. For some reason Ruby is not listed in care records, despite only being 5 years old. When Ellen dies, he decides to move back to Liverpool, taking Annie and Ruby with him. They may or may not officially married, either in Australia or when they arrive in the UK.

3) William was never in Australia (then where was he in 1891?) and Ruby somehow came to the UK for different reasons.

Still randomly performing google searches in hope I unearth something about William or Annie!

I am going to purchase the nurse's death certificate, which will probably confirm if she was Australian or born in Britain (possibly narrowing down the location of their wedding) but aside from that I don't think there's much else it'll tell me?

I'm not sure it will tell you where she was born, the change from landscape to portrait and presumably the addition of the question of birthplace added, didn't take place until 1969.

I've read (on Yahoo answers) this:

"Since civil registration became mandatory on July 1st 1837, death certificates had the following information on them. A persons date and place of birth, their full name, male/female, their given age, his or her occupation, profession or rank, the cause of death and duration of their last illness. The name and address of the informant was on there as well as their relationship to the deceased, and where and when the death was registered. In 1969 the deceased usual address was recorded as well.

Up until 1953 here in the UK a death had to be registered within 8 days, that was reduced to 5 days in 1953, that remains the same now."

I expect the full name won't say "nee XXXXX" on it, so all I can really hope for is place of birth. I already know the age she died, and her profession, and the cause of death, but perhaps it could have more detailed information on it such as what kind of nurse, and the specific illness that caused the fever.

It might be a Yahoo answer but it is incorrect. A death certificate for the time you want does not give date and place of birth it just gives age which is the age the person registering the death thinks is correct.

If you look on the GRO website there is an example of a death certificate. I can't give a link as I have not yet learn how to cut and paste on an iPad! I googled GRO death certificate.

Well this is why I cited my source, as I wasn't sure where they'd gotten their information from. I finally found the info on the GRO website which confirms what you say. Basically I'm up a creek of faecal matter without a paddle. Don't think I'll bother ordering it. Not even a relative, so really will be a waste of money!

This is a scan of part of a 1904 Death cert showing the info columns....

Thanks DS I was too lazy to go and put my PC on and do it!

I suppose I could hope that the informant could potentially be someone other than her husband (William Johns) assuming she was local born and had family in the area, but unlikely even if she was local.

So far I've found William Johns in the 1900 Gore Directory at 372 Mill Street, so that's shaved another year off when he was likely to have returned to Liverpool. Don't know when the Gore directory was compiled, but I expect it'd be 1899. I'm expecting his return to Liverpool happening closer to 1894 than 1899 anyway.