Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello everyone,

I've just joined this board, though I've been researching my Liverpool family for at least 15 years!

So I have lots of info to share with others who are interested in the same families, and really hope I will find others here who can share info with me, too.

I'm currently trying to find descendents of my GASKELL family, with whom to try and resolve some puzzles: siblings
Ann Jane b 19.3.1876 at 68, Bostock St (my g-grandmother), married Henry Welsby GREEN;
Ada b 30.8.1877 at 87, Conway St, Everton, married George Fred ABELE, had daughter Emily aka Patricia Emily, who married John MANLEY;
William b 8.6.1879, married Evelyn RIGMAIDEN, had daughter Estelle and son William Henley, had a shop on Lower Breck Road in the 20s/30s (at least);
Gertrude b 28.6.1881 at 32, Winslow St, Walton, married Edward HARRISON, had at least 4 elusive children of whom one, Annie, was born 1905;
John Henry aka Jack, b 4.12.1885, became a seaman.

They were all the children of William Gaskell (a ship's steward with T.J.Harrison, also a Freemason) and his wife Hannah nee Rawlinson.

Really really hoping that someone out there will be able to help!

Many thanks / diolch yn fawr,

Maria

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I hope we may be able to help you, please give details of the 1901 census if you have it and we can see the family unit.

We have tried to put together a few suggestions for searching living people here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=8154 and hope you will find some of these links useful.

Helo a chroeso, Maria
It would be of assistance if you could tell us how far forward you have managed to come with the descendants of the children you listed with census references etc, if possible. It would save us from digging over ground you have already ploughed.

For instance, your g.g.mother...
Marriages Sep 1900: Gaskell, Ann Jane married Green, Henry Welsby - W. Derby 8b 667

1901: RG13 Piece: 3467 Folio: 121 Page: 11
Address: 127 Ruskin Street, Kirkdale, Lancashire
GREEN, Henry Head Md 29 1872 Barman, Public House - Liverpool, Lancashire
GREEN, Annie Wife 24 1877 - Liverpool, Lancashire

1910+1:
6 Bride Street Walton Liverpool.
GREEN, Henry Head 1872 Dock Labourer - Liverpool
GREEN, Annie Wife [Md 11 yrs] 35 1876 - Liverpool
GREEN, Elsie Dtr 9 1902 - Liverpool
GREEN, Stanley Son 8 1903 - Liverpool
GREEN, Willie Son 6 1905 - Liverpool
GREEN, Henry Son 2 1909 - Liverpool

Helo Dickiesam and Mary A,

Thanks for the welcome! / Diolch am y croeso!

I have the family on the 1901 and 1911 censuses - on the 1901 they are at RG13 piece 3466 folio 7 page 5, where they are shown like this:

66, Salop St, Kirkdale
William Gaskell, Head, Married, 61, Ship's steward, worker, b Wigan
Hannah Gaskell, wife, married, 54, b Liverpool
Ada Gaskell, daughter, single, 23, dressmaker, worker, b Liverpool
William Gaskell, son, single, 21, clerk, worker, b Liverpool
Gertrude Gaskell, daughter, 19, b Liverpool
John H Gaskell, son, 15, office boy (port), worker, b Liverpool.

The eldest in the family was my g-grandmother Annie Jane who was by then married to Henry Welsby GREEN, living on Ruskin St and expecting my grandmother, her eldest child. There had also been another child, Herbert Wilfred, b 1884, d 1886.

I have Annie Jane's, Ada's and Gertrude's marriage certs, the birth certs of my grandmother (Elsie b 30.9.1901) and her three brothers (though only a short certificate for Stanley), birth cert for Ada's daughter Emily (b 10.3.1918), and my grandmother's and Emily's marriage certificates. I have death certs for William the ship's steward (1915), Hannah his wife (1928), and Ada (1928). I have searched high and low for Annie Jane (GREEN)'s death cert but without success. She was still alive shortly before WW2, by which time she was a widow, and said to have been living in an area of Liverpool which was very badly bombed. She was never heard from again, and the assumption in the family has been that she perished without trace in the bombing. However, there is no evidence of this other than that the house she was last known to have lived in was destroyed.

I know that Ada (in whom I have a particular interest) was a dressmaker for a prestigious department store, which I think (but am not sure) was probably Henderson's. Before her marriage, Annie worked as a draper's assistant and I am guessing that that may also have been at Henderson's. It would be good to find out more about this, if possible, but I fear any staff records may have been destroyed in the fire.

Ada had one child, Emily, who later acquired the extra first name Patricia and married a John MANLEY in 1945 (I have their marriage cert). I cannot find any children for these two, and Emily died (as Patricia E MANLEY) in 1967.

Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905. She (Gertrude) was the informant on Ada's daughter's birth registration in 1918.

Young William Gaskell married an Evelyn RIGMAIDEN and I have found two children for them: Estelle and William Henley. I know that he had a shop on Lower Breck Road in the 20s/30s. His son, William Henley, is mentioned in the probate record following William (b 1879)'s death in 1947, and is also described as a shopkeeper. Possibly the same shop??

All I know about John/Jack is that he went to sea, and used to bring back presents for my grandmother, his niece, from far-away places.

I know who the descendents of my grandmother and her brother Stan are/were, but apart from that I am not in contact with any present-day descendents of this family. I am hoping that if I could find them, we could between us shed some more light on the lives of the Gaskells shown above on the 1901 census!

Thank you very much for your interest / diolch am eich diddordeb. [Elsie, my grandmother, married one of the Liverpool Welsh community, Thomas Glyn RICHARDS (my Taid) - will post about them another time, when I've tidied up this bit of my grandmother's family!]

Maria wrote: I have Annie Jane's, Ada's and Gertrude's marriage certs, the birth certs of my grandmother (Elsie b 30.9.1901) and her three brothers (though only a short certificate for Stanley), birth cert for Ada's daughter Emily (b 10.3.1918), and my grandmother's and Emily's marriage certificates.

Maria wrote: Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905. She (Gertrude) was the informant on Ada's daughter's birth registration in 1918.

I have a little problem with this information, you have given all the female names and mentioned them later, as above, but for example we don't have Gertrude's married name unless we take a guess.

The names Gaskell and Rigmaiden are at least not the most common of names, especially the latter, as you are very interested in the shops and trades it would be a good idea for you to do a search of them in the Directories.

Re:

I have searched high and low for Annie Jane (GREEN)'s death cert but without success. She was still alive shortly before WW2, by which time she was a widow, and said to have been living in an area of Liverpool which was very badly bombed. She was never heard from again, and the assumption in the family has been that she perished without trace in the bombing. However, there is no evidence of this other than that the house she was last known to have lived in was destroyed.

There are many deaths recorded in the GRO from 1939 to 1944 under the heading of 'Unknown' where a body was recovered but never identified. My mother lost 2 brothers on the same night in the first week of the 1941 May Blitz, May 3rd. One was found and identified 4 days later. The other was never found or identified, just 'Missing' in the casualty lists.

Re Jack Gaskell.... Worth going for the death cert if you are sure of his birth date for informant, relationship, and addresses?
Death: GASKELL, John Henry
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1974; Jun qtr
Date of Birth: 4 December 1885
Volume no: 36; Page no: 0642

Could this be his marriage?
John H Gaskell married Elizabeth E Moss
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1913; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 834

Children?
Births Mar 1914: GASKELL, Harold [Moss] W.Derby 8b 576
Births Jun 1915: Gaskell, John [Moss] W.Derby 8b 520
Births Jun 1918: Gaskell, Lillian M [Moss] W Derby 8b 414
Births Mar 1922: Gaskell, Ronald [Moss] W.Derby 8b 542
Births Jun 1924: Gaskell, Sidney N [Moss] W. Derby 8b 705

Re:

Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905.

With the apparent absence of a child Annie from the 1911, I am wondering if Edward Harrison made an mistake on the Household Return. While 4 children had been born had all 4 in fact died?

Death: HARRISON, Ann
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1907; Sep qtr
Age at death: 1
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 23

A possible from the many?
Deaths Dec 1906: Harrison, John Henry 0 W. Derby 8b 301

MaryA wrote:

Maria wrote: I have Annie Jane's, Ada's and Gertrude's marriage certs, the birth certs of my grandmother (Elsie b 30.9.1901) and her three brothers (though only a short certificate for Stanley), birth cert for Ada's daughter Emily (b 10.3.1918), and my grandmother's and Emily's marriage certificates.

Maria wrote: Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905. She (Gertrude) was the informant on Ada's daughter's birth registration in 1918.

I have a little problem with this information, you have given all the female names and mentioned them later, as above, but for example we don't have Gertrude's married name unless we take a guess.

Sorry, Mary, I omitted to repeat them from my first post. Apologies!
Gertrude married Edward HARRISON
Ada married George Fred ABELE
Emily married John MANLEY
Annie (my g-grandmother) married Henry Welsy GREEN

dickiesam wrote:Re:

Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905.

With the apparent absence of a child Annie from the 1911, I am wondering if Edward Harrison made an mistake on the Household Return. While 4 children had been born had all 4 in fact died?

Death: HARRISON, Ann
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1907; Sep qtr
Age at death: 1
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 23

A possible from the many?
Deaths Dec 1906: Harrison, John Henry 0 W. Derby 8b 301

Now there's a thought (though a very sad one)! Even shipping clerks can make mistakes, I guess - especially over such a sensitive subject as the fact that ALL one's children have died.

Hmm, thanks for that ... will have a hunt.

dickiesam wrote: Re Jack Gaskell.... Worth going for the death cert if you are sure of his birth date for informant, relationship, and addresses?
Death: GASKELL, John Henry
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1974; Jun qtr
Date of Birth: 4 December 1885
Volume no: 36; Page no: 0642

Could this be his marriage?
John H Gaskell married Elizabeth E Moss
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1913; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 834

Children?
Births Mar 1914: GASKELL, Harold [Moss] W.Derby 8b 576
Births Jun 1915: Gaskell, John [Moss] W.Derby 8b 520
Births Jun 1918: Gaskell, Lillian M [Moss] W Derby 8b 414
Births Mar 1922: Gaskell, Ronald [Moss] W.Derby 8b 542
Births Jun 1924: Gaskell, Sidney N [Moss] W. Derby 8b 705

Oh, fantastic!!! Thank you! I shall definitely send off for that!

dickiesam wrote:Re:

I have searched high and low for Annie Jane (GREEN)'s death cert but without success. She was still alive shortly before WW2, by which time she was a widow, and said to have been living in an area of Liverpool which was very badly bombed. She was never heard from again, and the assumption in the family has been that she perished without trace in the bombing. However, there is no evidence of this other than that the house she was last known to have lived in was destroyed.

There are many deaths recorded in the GRO from 1939 to 1944 under the heading of 'Unknown' where a body was recovered but never identified. My mother lost 2 brothers on the same night in the first week of the 1941 May Blitz, May 3rd. One was found and identified 4 days later. The other was never found or identified, just 'Missing' in the casualty lists.

The likelihood is that she was, like your uncle, killed but not identified. But I've put quite a lot of effort into eliminating all the other possibilities, because she doesn't appear on ANY lists - not even of missing people. My grandfather (her son-in-law) was dispatched to Liverpool from the other side of the country, (where they were by then living) following the big blitz, and spent a week there looking for her or some trace of her, and came back to report that there was none. And I've not been able to find any either. My grandmother, Annie's daughter, used to say that although her mother probably died in the Blitz, she couldn't be 100% sure of that - and I guess that's how it's likely to remain, unfortunately!

MaryA wrote: The names Gaskell and Rigmaiden are at least not the most common of names, especially the latter, as you are very interested in the shops and trades it would be a good idea for you to do a search of them in the Directories.

Thanks Mary, I do indeed need to have a search in the Directories. Do you know any that are available on-line?

Not at the date you are interested in. They will be yearly at the Record Office or if you think specific years might be of help check who has a copy and send them a private message.
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =16&t=6906

William Gaskell married Evelyn M Rigmaiden
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1914; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 802

Births:
GASKELL Estelle F - West Derby 1915
GASKELL William H - West Derby 1917

Possible marriages.....
A) William H Gaskell married Veronica Hawkhead
Registration district: Liverpool North
Year of registration: 1940; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 1761

B) William H Gaskell married Mary Stevens
Registration district: Liverpool North
Year of registration: 1945; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 774

Death: GASKELL, William Henley
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1981; Dec qtr
Date of Birth: 5 August 1917
Volume no: 36; Page no: 0520

Because descendants may still be living I have sent more data via PM.

Maria wrote:

dickiesam wrote:Re:

Gertrude recorded on the 1911 census that she had 4 living children but I cannot find them on the census, and have only traced the birth of one, Annie b 1905.

With the apparent absence of a child Annie from the 1911, I am wondering if Edward Harrison made an mistake on the Household Return. While 4 children had been born had all 4 in fact died?

Death: HARRISON, Ann
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1907; Sep qtr
Age at death: 1
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 23

A possible from the many?
Deaths Dec 1906: Harrison, John Henry 0 W. Derby 8b 301

Now there's a thought (though a very sad one)! Even shipping clerks can make mistakes, I guess - especially over such a sensitive subject as the fact that ALL one's children have died.

Hmm, thanks for that ... will have a hunt.

Update on missing Harrison children: it appears that there was at least one who survived: Gertrude Emily HARRISON, b 10.6.1907 and who only died (as Gertrude Emily SILVESTER) in 2002!

So where were she and any others on census night in 1911, I ask myself??

I notice that the St Athanasius records are not available on Ancestry, did you find their on marriage online database or order the certificate?

Have you checked the baptisms for the same church and also any around the Walton Breck Road area on microfiche to see if there are any recorded?

Re:

Update on missing Harrison children: it appears that there was at least one who survived: Gertrude Emily HARRISON, b 10.6.1907 and who only died (as Gertrude Emily SILVESTER) in 2002!

Birth: HARRISON, Gertrude Emily
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1907; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 453

Where did that information come from?

Re Gertrude E Harrison
If this is her and confirmed by birth and marriage certs... her whereabouts in 1910+1, together with 3 other children, is a real puzzle.

Gertrude E Harrison married Frederick Silvester
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1929; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 739

Births, Silvester nee Harrison
SILVESTER, Dorothy A - London, Pancras 1929
SILVESTER, Audrey - West Derby 1932
SILVESTER, Norman - Liverpool North 1938

Death: SILVESTER, Gertrude Emily
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 2002
Month of registration: April
Date of Birth: 10 June 1907
District no: 0251B; Reg no: B35D; Ent no: 037; DOR: 402

The Genealogist will let you search for a family by groups of names. I don't have it, but someone must/. You can get a 14 day free trial - might help
Lynne

Could Gertrude have found her way here?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KDGM-QS9