Two lines of Venables in family

[cwsfam]

I am from the states and appear to have two distinct Venable(s) lines traced back to Liverpool. One is fairly certain--a William Venables, Sr (1787-1868) with considerable supporting documents. The other is likely --Abraham Venables (1662-1710) but there are conflicting reports about his place of birth and death, although at least two records state either Liverpool or Lancashire. Anyone out there willing and able to help me clarify this? Thanks!
Barbara

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I'm sure we would try to help, but please give some more details, what documents do you have listing both men and where have they been obtained from, have you seen originals or just transcripts online? We'd be interested to hear what you have.

[Tina]

Hi Barbara I'm sure you will have some luck here in our forum.
Best wishes in your research.
Couldn't find a thing for your Wm in Anc for the years you mentioned.
Was he born in Liverpool?

[dickiesam]

Hi Barbara,
Lots of willing helpers here. Looking forward to more info as requested by MaryA and Tina.
With regard to:

although at least two records state either Liverpool or Lancashire.

Lancashire is the county that 'contained' the city of Liverpool within its environs, so anyone who says 'born in Liverpool' could rightly be said to be from Lancashire on a document. However, simply writing Lancashire could mean born anywhere in the county.

[Hilary]

Is this your William?

Marriage: 22 Apr 1816 St John, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Willm. Venables - Plasterer, this Parish
Mary Newport - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Ellen Pennington; Saml. Newport, (X)
Married by Banns by: Richd. Loxham Minisr.

www.lan-opc.org.uk

[cwsfam]

Many thanks to all the kind replies! What I have is a bit lengthy, so here goes:

The first mention I found of the origin of Rev. William Venables came from this document:

A Complete History of Methodism, as connected with the Misssissippi Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South by Rev. John G. Jones, Volume II (1817-1845) published by the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, 1908, Nashville, TN.

The book states "Mr. (William) Venables was born in England, near Liverpool, April 25, 1787 of worthy and respectable parents. He was converted in his fourteenth year among the Wesleyan Methodists and became a member of thieir society. When about grown, he became acquainted with Lorenzo Dow on one of his preaching tours in the British Isles, and was so pleased with him that about 1807 he returned with him to New York, where he remained about two years." (The rest of the pages devoted to Rev. Venables discuss his work in the United States.)

Rev. Venables married Sarah Watson on November 30, 1821 in St. Helena parish, Louisiana. He and Sarah had four children: John Matthews Venable (1813- ), Louis H. Venable (1818-1879), William Fenlow Venable (1824-1898) and Mary Venable (1829-1903) who married Walter K. Carruth (1826-1902). We have Bible records, marriage and death records and numerous other documents which verify all this.

My son-in-law's grandparents were third cousins to each other—one descended from William Fenlow Venable and the other from Mary Venable Carruth.

So Rev. William Venables is well established as an ancestor of my son in law. We would love to know more about his family.

Now, here's the kicker. I believe I have a Venable line also, through a female—Mary Venable-- who married my fifth great grand father, Richard Hayes. We only recently discovered her last name was Venable, so my records are sketchy from this point forward. Her parents appear to be Abraham Venable (1699-1768) and Martha Davis. Abraham Venable's parents, who we believe to be Abraham Venable Sr. (1662-1710) (wife Elizabeth) was the immigrant—possibly from Lancashire or possibly from Devonshire. There are some documents attesting to marriage, transport, land documents a will, but more preliminary investigation needs to be done before I am satisfied the link is true. Part of that investigation is this post, asking fellow genealogy enthusiasts to share what they may know of either or both of these Venable(s).
Thanks in advance to any who may have clues to share.
Barbara Smith

[Hilary]

I see it says he was born near Liverpool this to me means he was not born In Liverpool but somewhere around Liverpool. This could be I would think perhaps up to a 20 mile radius of the town. Liverpool would have been a known place in America but many of the smaller towns and villages would not have been.

I live in Southport about 20 miles north west of Liverpool. When I am in Switzerland and Swiss people or other holidaymakers from Holland, Germany and France ask me where I'm from I say Southport and then say it's near Liverpool. Then I get smiles and mention of football!!

I would widen your search for a possible baptism of William.

Was he by any chance associated with the famous meeting at Mow Cop in 1807?

[cwsfam]

Thank you for the reply. That sounds like a fairly good estimate for "close to Liverpool" . Embarrassed to say I have never heard of the Mow Cop. What was that?

[cwsfam]

Just looked up the Mow Cop anniversary associated with Methodism. I would be willing to bet this did have an influence, since Lorenzo Dow was associated with this revival and also that the young William Venables appears to have "got religion" enough at that time to go to the states with Rev. Dow. Good hint!

[Hilary]

Mow Cop is associated with what became known as Primitive Methodism in the UK. Mow Cop is on the borders of Staffordshire and Cheshire. If young William went there h perhaps was from Cheshire. Certainly the north west of Cheshire could be described as near Liverpool.

[cwsfam]

I read up on primitive Methodism and Mow Cop last night and think you may be correct. Rev. William Venables started a primitive Methodist church in St. Helena parish, Louisiana which is one of the oldest still in existence in the United States. He and his family kept their membership there and many descendants still attend.

One other interesting point--I found Abraham Venable was also said to have been from Cheshire as well as Lancashire and Devonshire. Sometimes I have seen debarkation points of immigrant ships inaccurately listed as birthplaces of those immigrants. Perhaps immigrant ships set sail from Devonshire?

I am going to look for the ships Lorenzo Dow sailed on, too. I understand his trip to your area was about 1805, not 1807. Wonder if he came in 1805, stirred things up with local Methodists to start the revival at Mow Cop and moved on in 1807 afterwards?

I rather wish I had not given up my Ancestry world membership last month, but with all the problems on the site, I could not access records and Ancestry did not appear to care. Would anyone know where I could find records of the Wesleyan Methodist churches located in Cheshire and Lancashire at that time?

Thanks for all the clues. You folk have been fabulous.

[dickiesam]

Would anyone know where I could find records of the Wesleyan Methodist churches located in Cheshire and Lancashire at that time?

Try.....
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/sea ... methodist/
http://www.britishonlinearchives.co.uk/ ... &keywords=

With regard to Devonshire [aka modern Devon] there were several ports for 'big' ships of the day, including Plymouth which is notable as the departure point of William Bradford and the Mayflower Pilgrims.

[Bertieone]

For the crew, I would think Barbara has seen this.
By Nathanial Venable, Mary Venables brother, children of Abraham Venables , if the trees available on Anc are correct.

http://archive.org/stream/jstor-1915563 ... 3_djvu.txt

[Hilary]

As William appears to be a convert I would look at Church of England for a baptism.

When civil registration began in 1837 non conformist churches were asked to send their registers to the Registrar a General many did but not all. All these registers have been filmed and appear on various sites as England Non Conformist registers. They are on ancestry and on the genealogist site and a lot on family search.

Churches that did not send in their registers retained them and they may or may not have survived. In the UK Primitive Methodist and Wesleyan Methodist had different Chapels.

Without a place it will be very difficult maybe newspapers are worth trying.

[Bertieone]

If I'm following the link correctly and if it is correct,

Mary Venable, daughter of Abraham Venable and Martha Davis, married Charles Moorman.

[dickiesam]

Possible baptism?

Forenames: William
Surname: Venables
Gender: Male
Christening Year: 1789
Christening Date: 29 Nov 1789
Father's Forenames: Thomas
Father's Surname: Venables
Mother's Forename: Hannah
Record Group: Part 1 - 31; Record Number:144
Town of Middlewich
County: Cheshire
Record source: Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms 1538-1910

[cwsfam]

You are all a lot of lovely, lovely people!

Bert, I had seen that entry and do appreciate your bringing it up. I just wasn't quite sure at the time that my Mary Venable traced back to that Abraham and you found the exact part that bothered me-plus I like to find records and not completely rely on those trees, which may or may not be accurate! The trouble with that is that my ancestor's name was Richard Hayes-not Moorman. Could be another spouse, of course, but I must be careful. I have noted your find in case I connect them.

dickiesam--That is an excellent call on a possible baptism. Is anything known of those parents? Two records indicate William was from a well placed, respected family and that he became a Wesleyan Methodist at the age of 12-14. Certainly that indicates a possible conversion from the Church of England, though his parents could have been Methodists as well. As for the date--three things occur to me. First, was it possible the young Thomas was as old as one or two when baptised? Secondly, young men off for an adventure think nothing of adding a year or two to their ages in order to be considered adult and William would have been barely 16 when he left to go overseas with Lorenzo Dow. Third, in reaction to the very young age--someone had to pay for his passage. At the age of 16, he likely had little money of his own except through his family, so either he convinced family to pay a one way passage to lands unknown or Lorenzo Dow did. Also, thank you for the lead to records of the Methodist churches of the time.

I so appreciate your replying so kindly and helpfully. If it would be helpful at all, I do have a new family web site I invite you to visit. I have quite a few proved British ancestors and it would be so fun if any of us connected!

Here is the site: http://fowlersmithheritage.tribalpages.com/
Any who may interested please sign the request form and I will gladly extend a guest pass to you.

Here are my surnames that are traced to Great Britain.
Some are traced back further, but here are the ones I feel most sure of:
1 Smith, Townley , Debham or Debenham, Royle(Lancashire)
2 Hayes, Puckett (Oxfordshire)
3 Tankersley, Rowland, Thornhill, Pictaveus, Field, Beserley, Bevin (Yorkshire)
4 Fontaine , Bourisquot (from delaFontaine) Provence, France to Leinster , Ireland
5 English, Dent (Morton, Durham to Westmeath, ireland)
6 Haynes (Bedfordshire)
7 Dee or Day ( Wales)
8 Perrin (Cambridgeshire)
9 Greer (Dumfrieshire, Scotland)
10 Hope (Edenburgh, Scotland)
11 Brown, Cox, (Suffolk)
12 Cooley, Vinton (Hertfordshire)
13 Colton (Warwickshire)
14 Warner (Cambridge)
15 Baldwin (Buckinghamshire)
16 Boltwood (Essex)

17 Warriner (Lincolnshire)
18 Rosser (Sussex)
19 Lanier, Bassano (France to Kent)
20 Washington, Curtis (Northhamptonshire)
21 Stilwell,(Surrey)

[alex69]

I am sure you will have seen this
http://www.wallace-venable.name/Venable ... enable.pdf

especially pages 9ff giving the Normandy/UK/early US history.

Alex

[Hilary]

The Middlewich William is in Middlewich in later census I traced him forwards.

I would also look in Staffordshire as the 2 men responsible for the Mow Cop meeting and the formation of Primitive Methodists in the UK ( please note this was different to Wesleyan Methodism (Primitives were expelled from Wesleyan Methodism)were from Staffordshire.

I saw a couple of Abraham Venables baptised in Staffordshire but later than you want.

If you google Primitive Methodists history you should be able to find a link that would tell you the names of books about their early history which may give names.

Could your man have gone as an indentured servant? That way fare is paid has to work for a year or so and then can move on?

It would be interesting to know where Lorenzo Dow went in the UK.

[Hilary]

PS did you read my previous post in which I tried to explain why I think he would have been christened in a c of e And the the difference here between Wesleyan and Primitive Methodists.

I do think knowing where Lorenzo visited is the key to this.