Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'd love to hear from anyone who is researching or has knowledge of James McDaniel who died 3 July 1928 aged 70 and is buried in Ford Cemetery.
He was a pensioner of the Royal Irish Constabulary.
Possibly born in Ireland in 1858 and married to "Rose".
Many thanks, Rosie.

Hi and welcome to the forum. We have put together a few suggestions for tracing a living relative here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=8154 meantime can you give us more information, do you have him on any censuses? particularly the 1911 with a wife as this might possibly give the number of years they had been married.

If you have any earlier censuses with children that might narrow things down, particularly if they were baptised in an RC church which often gives the mother's maiden name.

Do you have his death certificate and who registered the death?

Just for information - the burial of James McDaniel at Ford Cemetery was Friday 6th July, 1928, age 70 and address 30 Hopwood Street, Grave Reference RD1269.

Did you know that Hopwood Street was beneath where the entrance to the new tunnel is now, a church on the same street (RC) was All Souls which he may have attended.

Looking at the grave references on the page RD1269 would seem to me to be a private grave, have you cross referenced this to find out who else is in the plot? this can be done at the Liverpool Record Office.

Not having had any luck with the Liverpool censuses in 1911 or 1901 I was wondering if this is your family in Ireland, 1911
Residents of a house 6 in Greaghnaroog (Drumgurra, Monaghan) all born in Co. Monaghan
McDaniel James 54 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
McDaniel Rose 32 Female Wife Roman Catholic
McDaniel Lizzie 3 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
McDaniel Mary Kate 1 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
McDaniel Hugh Alphonsus Male Son Roman Catholic

You can search the Irish censuses for free at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

I wonder if it was a second marriage for James?

You can also search the Irish marriage indexes on the familysearch site, but have to match up the bride and groom the "old" way as we used to do before the English indexes were digitised. Not easy when you don't know the surname of the wife, so I think the first thing you will need to do is to search them for the birth of one of the children, I would imagine Hugh would be the least common and easiest to search for.

If you have a subs to Findmypast there are a couple of entries for Hugh McDaniel in the Merchant Navy, born 1910 Monaghan, Discharge No. R188148. If you don't have a subs, check your local library who may have, or the Liverpool Record Office, which definitely does and is free for you to use.

I was puzzled not to find a birth entry for McDaniels in Monaghan, although there is a possible Mary Kate McDaniel April 1909 / June 1909 Carrickmacross, Ireland and also Hugh A McDaniel birth: July 1910 / September 1910 Carrickmacross, Ireland so I think this must be them.

Information about ordering certificates from Ireland from one of our members - thanks DS
Irish BMDs. Up to 1921 all BMDs are held at Roscommons. From 1921 only Republic BMDs are held there. BMDs for Northern Ireland from 1921 onwards are held by GRONI.
At present you cannot order and pay online at the Irish GRO site.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-fo ... cates.aspx
You must download the relevant application form and either complete it on screen or after printing it. You can then either fax or post it back to the GRO. Takes about 7 days if you can fax it or up to 14 days by post. Specify a photocopy version which costs only 4 Euro [abt £3.25!]. It is exactly the same as the certified copy costing 5x as much but has no legal standing. Ideal for family research. If you can't fax from your PC there is probably a friendly fax nearby but don't forget to take the fax number with you!.

Ignore the option Apply for certificates online. This takes you to the Health Service Executive [aka the HSE] site. It is expensive at 20 Euro a shot [abt £17.50] and without the photocopy option.

Thanks for all this info and the links to the Irish records offices. I haven't looked at this branch of my family for a while and data sources seem to have improved a bit.
I live in the south east and I'm planning a visit to the National Archive soon, I will be looking for James's RIC record data which is available there.
I didn't know that Hopwood St was where the Mersey Tunnel is now, I will also check out the records for All Souls Church.
I do think that the Monaghan family is the right one as James's death was registered by his wife "R".
I did do a bit of research into Hugh Alphonsus, he was in the Merchant Navy in WW2 and was killed by a U-Boat strike.

Have you ever heard of people changing their surnames like this? Or am I overlooking something basic and jumping to conclusions?
RL.

Just picked up your mention of Carrickmacross, and I'm so excited! My father said that some of his family came from there, but I've never been able to find a connection before. Off I go!
Thanks!

RosieL wrote: Have you ever heard of people changing their surnames like this? Or am I overlooking something basic and jumping to conclusions?
RL.

I'm puzzled by what you say here, haven't found evidence of a change of name?

Judging by the birth dates of the children, I wonder if this is James marriage, at the prices charged perhaps it's worth a punt.

Name: James M'Daniel
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: Oct - Dec 1888
Event Place: Carrickmacross, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1888
Registration District: Carrickmacross
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 393

Just looked through the list of mails and my "explanation" of the name change didn't get posted, no wonder you are confused.
The plot at Ford Cemetery, RD 1269, is the grave of my great-grandparents Patrick and Ann McDonald, their son Patrick McDonald and James.
I have the original certificate from Ford when the plot was purchased by my great-grandfather in 1919. On the back of the certificate, it lists the interrments (sp?) - Patrick senior (1919), Ann (1939), Patrick junior (1973) and James McDonald, 6 July 1928.
I also have a copy of Patrick junior's will ( my father was his executor). In it, he expresses the wish to be buried "with my parents AND UNCLE".

I have James McDaniel's death cert and he died on 3rd July 1928. There are no deaths for a James McDonald of a suitable age in that quarter.

The evidence seems to indicate that the guy in Plot RD 1269 is a McDonald.

James McDaniel was in receipt of a pension from the Royal Irish Constabulary when he died - if he had been a member of the Black and Tans for example, that may be a reason to separate himself and his family from some of his Catholic relatives.

Sorry for the confusion! RL

Well thanks for the explanation, and yes we have had a couple of mentions of name changes, especially of Irish, perhaps when a few other forum members come online they will be able to remember their own instances, I can't find the post just at present, but my own great uncle, from Wexford, left Liverpool for America as John Parle and became Jack Sullivan, family rumour saying that he was leaving because of "a bit of trouble".

Sometimes perhaps it's best not to ask too many questions

Marriage,

Hugh married Teresa Mcdonald,
Crosby 1936
8b 1175

Info on sinking

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/c ... 27094.html

Yes - I've heard stories of "trouble" with this branch of my family as well!

RosieL wrote:
I have James McDaniel's death cert and he died on 3rd July 1928. There are no deaths for a James McDonald of a suitable age in that quarter.

The evidence seems to indicate that the guy in Plot RD 1269 is a McDonald.

It seems to me that whoever recorded the names on the back of the certificate has made the error and assumed the name was James Mcdonald, there is no evidence in the Ford burial records to support this.

The death registration does give James as McDaniel, however I don't see deaths for an Ann and Patrick for the years you give.

You could do a double check at the Record Office, there are microfiches that also list the graves and who is interred in them.

MaryA wrote:Not having had any luck with the Liverpool censuses in 1911 or 1901 I was wondering if this is your family in Ireland, 1911
Residents of a house 6 in Greaghnaroog (Drumgurra, Monaghan) all born in Co. Monaghan
McDaniel James 54 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
McDaniel Rose 32 Female Wife Roman Catholic
McDaniel Lizzie 3 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
McDaniel Mary Kate 1 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
McDaniel Hugh Alphonsus Male Son Roman Catholic

You can search the Irish censuses for free at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

The Irish 1911 census hit that MaryA found also includes the following information......
This James was born in Co Monaghan. He is an R I C Pensioner and has been married for 4 years. The 1911 has only one Hugh McDaniel, as in the James/Rose McDaniel household, born abt 1910, so this is probably him:
Name: Hugh Mcdaniel
Event Type: Military Service
Event Year Range: 1921-1941
Event Place: United Kingdom
Birthplace: Monaghan
Birth Year: 1910

It would appear that at least two McDaniel births were not registered in Monaghan but in nearby Carrickmacross.
Name: Mary Kate McDaniel
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1909
Event Place: Carrickmacross, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1909
Registration District: Carrickmacross
Volume Number: 2; Page Number: 380

Name: Hugh A McDaniel
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Jul - Sep 1910
Event Place: Carrickmacross, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1910
Registration District: Carrickmacross
Volume Number: 2; Page Number: 361

MaryA wrote:The death registration does give James as McDaniel, however I don't see deaths for an Ann and Patrick for the years you give.

You could do a double check at the Record Office, there are microfiches that also list the graves and who is interred in them.

Mary,

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2183/ ... turnRecord


http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2183/ ... turnRecord

From http://www.cwgc.org/

McDANIEL, HUGH ALPHONSUS
Rank: Fourth Engineer Officer
Date of Death: 01/06/1941
Age: 30
Regiment/Service: Merchant Navy
Vessel: M.V. Alfred Jones (Liverpool)
Panel Reference: Panel 5.
Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL
Additional Information: Son of James and Rose McDaniel; husband of Teresa M. McDaniel.

Scroll down to the Alfred Jones,

http://www.benjidog.co.uk/Tower%20Hill/ ... iance.html

There is an MN record card for Hugh McDaniel.
Born 10/08/1910 in Co. Monaghan.
Died of burns 01/06/1941.
His first voyage was as 5th engineer on the MV Adda, from 12/02/1937 to 18/04/1939. The MV Adda was an Elder Dempster ship serving the West coast of Africa on the so-called "Lagos Express" service. See http://www.timetableimages.com/maritime/images/edl.htm

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