Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello. I have been researching my family history for many years and would consider myself to be quite good at it. However, I have hit a brick wall which is very frustrating and I'm not sure where to go from here. I have quite a bit of information about this person but it doesn't lead me anywhere.

I have built a very detailed family tree on " ancestry" but this person is a mystery.

Harold Sidney Smith was my paternal grandfather, and I never knew him.

Although I am not from Liverpool myself, my dad was born on 7th December 1922 at 76 Canterbury Street, West Derby. Untill I started my research, I thought that all my dad's family were from Liverpool, but that turned out not to be the case.

My dad's mum was Rebecca Jane Edgar, born 1883 in Chelsea, London. She married for the first time in 1906 to Ernest Albert Gerring and had one son Ernest Arthur George Gerring, ( who I knew well when I was a child ). The marriage only lasted two years as Ernest died in 1908. My nan, Rebecca is next shown on the 1911 census in London as a housekeeper, and her son, known as George was living with his grandparents in Fulham.

Then the mystery begins. Rebecca is next seen in the records as she marrys for the second time to Harold Sidney Smith, at St. Cyprians church, Edge Hill, Liverpool. The burning question is, how did she come to be in Liverpool ? I have her marriage certificate which can be seen on my ancestry tree. The marriage took place on the 6th Jan 1919. She is a widow living at 48 Dorothy Street, and Harold is a 33 year old bachelor also living at the same address. Harold's profession is a soldier, so he has survived the 1st world war. Harold's father is Albert Smith, a Veterinary surgeon.

You would think that this information would enable me to go back to trace Harolds family, but not so easy. Unfortunately, having the name of Smith, makes the task of tracing records very difficult. There are literally hundreds of Harold Smith's, and as I don't know where my Harold was from, I can't tie him to any of the records. I was almost certain that Harold must have come from Liverpool, otherwise, why would Rebecca leave London to marry in Liverpool, but this is not absolutely certain. I have searched the 1911, 1901, and 1891 census's for Harold and his father Albert, but I can't find any trace of them.

Harold and Rebecca had two children, my dad, Joseph Harold Albert Smith born 1922, and a sister Teresa Annie Smith, born 16th November at 367 Edge Lane, West Derby. Strangely, on my dad's birth cert. his dad is stated as Harold "Sefus" Smith, a journeyman baker. Sefus ??? Where did that come from ? On my aunt Teresa's birth cert. her dad is stated as Harold Sydney Smith, a hotel cook. The variation in names and spelling is confusing.

On my mum and dad's marriage cert. dated 26th November 1949, my dad states that his father is Albert Smith ??? a seaman. ( doesn't say deceased ) That in itself is weird as his father is Harold, and his grandfather is Albert.

On my aunt Teresa's ( always known as Tessie ) marriage cert. dated 11th April 1942 , she states her father is Harold Smith a merchant seaman and he is deceased.

If he was deceased in 1942, why didn't my dad state he was deceased in 1949 ?

Unfortunately I have been unable to verify any of this information as my parents have been gone for a long time now. My dad died in 1963 when I was only 9 years old. I have recently been able to trace all of my dad's Liverpool family that are still around, and there are quite a few of them, but none of them have any recollection of Harold Smith or remember anyone ever mentioning him. All of the family have been interested to learn more about our family history especially the mystery surrounding our grandfather. He appears to have been a military man, firstly being in the Army in the 1st world war, then being a Merchant Seaman, and is deceased by 1942, possibly perishing at sea in the 2nd world war. Just a thought. It may explain why my dad never mentioned his dad. Maybe he was away a lot and the relationship strained. I can only guess.

One very special fact that I have found out whilst researching, is that my dad, Joseph, was also in the Army in the 2nd world war and after joining the Kings Liverpool Regiment, was transferred to the 1st Battalion The Royal Ulster Rifles, and was deployed on D-DAY. He saw action in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany, and then later in Palestine and Egypt. I knew nothing of this and it came as a massive shock. I now have my dad's Army service record and his campaign medals. He was a real Liverpool hero. I have built a memorial to his memory which is on a website dedicated to the Royal Ulster Rifles. Anyone interested can look at his memorial at : www.royalulsterrifles.com/joseph-smith/4571598811


I have searched through countless military records for Harold, but again , there are so many Harold Smith's that I can't link him to any one record without knowing where Harold was born. Liverpool is my obvious starting point, as he married in Liverpool, bringing his bride to be, from London... but is this right ? I just don't know.
I have so much information, but it doesn't lead me anywhere.
-------------------------

If anyone has any suggestions I would be very grateful to hear them. I have posted on quite a few different sites and forums but so far without any luck. There has to be a record somewhere that shows Harold's early life and that of his parents. My guess is that Harold had siblings, who may have decendants that are still around today. Help please, as I feel like banging my head against the brick wall that I have accidently built......

Thanks.

Hi smith and welcome to the forum.
What a mystery you have got there, but we have some wonderful detectives on this forum so fingers crossed

I looked at the marriage cert and thought I'd go with the witnesses first.
Albert Peat showed up in the 1911, signature identical, living at 77 Holt Road age 36, Army pensioner, shopkeeper, married with children.

A possible William Eden in 1911 living at 38 Trevelyan St, Walton, bricklayer, single.

Haven't looked around yet, but just wondered if Harold was living nearby in 1911.

As you say Smith is difficult to track, but you never know!!

Hi Erika,
Yes , a mystery. I did look at the witnesses myself. I thought they could be army mates, but I couldn't link them to any particular army unit with a Harold Smith in it. Thanks for looking. Steve.

Hello Steve,
A question to help in the hunt....
Is his father Albert shown as 'deceased' on the 1919 marriage cert?.

DS,


Name:
Harold Sidney Smith

Birth Year:
abt 1886
Age:
33
Marriage Date:
6 Jan 1919
Parish:
Edge Hill, St Cyprian
Spouse's Name:
Rebecca Jane Gerring
Father's Name:
Albert Smith
Spouse Father's Name:
John Joseph Edgar

Father not deceased.

Hi DS,
Harold was shown as 33 years old on the marriage cert in 1919, and his father Albert is not shown as deceased. Harolds daughter Teresa married 11th April 1942 and he is shown as deceased on the marriage cert. Regards, Steve.

Hi and welcome to the forum. I hope we can be of some help.

Just to mention a couple of points that you raise - we have often come across people who are confused as to why the father isn't mentioned as deceased when they know they were - we believe the likely reason is that simply the question wasn't asked and so not noted.

Similarly the registrar probably completed the details of the birth certificate and simply spelled the name Sydney as he thought likely - Sidney.

It doesn't make searches any easier, but I don't think there is a big mystery about these points.

Harold's age at marriage gives him a birth year abt 1886. Between 1880 and 1890 there were only 4 birth registrations for Harold Sidney Smith...
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Yorkshire, Sheffield 1884
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Yorkshire, Wakefield 1888
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Kent, Dartford 1890
SMITH, Harold Sidney - London, Camberwell 1890

Assuming that age of 33 is more or less correct I would use a process of elimination, take a chance and look for a birth cert from the GRO. When you go to the GRO site http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter 1889 as the year. Do not enter the Index References [District, Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc].

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the father's name of Albert Smith. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year and that will cover 3 of the 4 births. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee. If one of those 3 births doesn't give a hit, then repeat the application this time based on 1884.

They might come back and say the name Smith presents a 'too many problem' for their searches. In which case do a repeat but this time specify the District, Year and Qtr as well as the father's name.

Taking MaryA's point there are 3 births for Harold Sydney Smith in the same period...
SMITH, Harold Sydney - Bedfordshire, Bedford 1880
SMITH, Harold Sydney - Middlesex, Brentford 1882
SMITH, Harold Sydney - London, Pancras 1887

Same application 'technique' for the first 2 using 1881.

If the GRO argues that the search is too difficult, being Smith - then place an order for two or three of the certificates BUT ensure that you state that you want the cert. ONLY if the father's name is correct. That way they will refund your money for any that are incorrect, and no they don't mind you ordering a few on that basis.

dickiesam wrote:Harold's age at marriage gives him a birth year abt 1886. Between 1880 and 1890 there were only 4 birth registrations for Harold Sidney Smith...
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Yorkshire, Sheffield 1884
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Yorkshire, Wakefield 1888
SMITH, Harold Sidney - Kent, Dartford 1890
SMITH, Harold Sidney - London, Camberwell 1890

The Harold Sidney Smith born in 1888 is on the 1891 Census but his father is not called Albert, so one to be eliminated?
RG12 piece 3746 folio 50 page 12

Is this birth/death linked to the family?

Birth

Name: Rebecca Gerring
Mother's Maiden Surname: Gerring
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1917
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 450

Death

Name: Rebecca Gerring
Birth Date: abt 1917
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1917
Age at Death: 0
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 388



Blue

MaryA
Thanks for the points you raised, and I do understand that cerificates often had mis spellings of names and info omitted. I have tried to go through a process of elimination as far as birth records are concerned and have used both spellings of the name. I have already looked at all of the birth records that you and DS have mentioned using both spellings. There is only one that jumps out at me and that is for Harold Sydney Smith born Pancras 1887. The only reason for my interest in this record is that my grandmother was also born in Pancras district. If this was in fact the right record, why then did they go to Liverpool to get married ? Did the army have something to do with the move ?


I know that on the marriage cert. Harold's age is 33 making his birth date around 1885, but this is not necessarily right. Similarly, my grandmothers age is shown as 35, making her birth year around 1883, but I know that her birth date is 16th June 1881, therefore the marriage record is wrong. All these inconsistencies further add to the confusion. I do take your point that there are only a limited number of records during this period, so it should be one of them, unless of course the birth record doesn't show the middle name which quite often happens.

As I said before, on my dad's birth record , his father is stated as Harold Sefus Smith, and the informant is his mother Rebecca. If as we know, his father is Harold Sidney, why then did she say that it was Harold Sefus. You would think she would have known her own husbands middle name. Sefus is quite unusual, so I'm thinking that this was a nickname or an alternative for Sidney. Nevertheless, I've no idea what this means, and it remains a spoke in the works.

Thanks again for your comments Mary.
Regards Steve.

Karen, thanks for your input.

DS, Thanks for this info. Thats very good advice. I will try that with the GRO.

Blue.
This is not linked to my family. Thanks for looking anyway.
Steve.

do you think he made Albert up?

I did notice one of the witness Albert Peat was an Army pensioner on the 1911, living in Liverpool, born 1875 Liverpool, wife Fanny born in Wigan, first child John b Woolwich in 1905.. Rg14 22565,
This made me wonder if the Army may be how Harold met him, as Harold states he is a soldier at his marriage....

There is a Harold Smith, Soldier, born Newton Cheshire 1886, in Manchester Regiment
RG14; Piece: 24339; Page: 4.

haven't been able to track him yet but there's a Harold Smith age 12 born in Hyde, living at Newton with mother Alice Ann Riley age 33 on the 1901, RG13; Piece: 3792; Folio: 92; Page: 22

all a bit vague I know got to sign off for now

Simone x

SMITH923 wrote:Blue.
This is not linked to my family. Thanks for looking anyway.
Steve.

Have you come across this before then? Did you find out who the mother of the child was?


Blue

Simone,
No I don't think he made Albert up. My dad's middle names are Harold Albert, after his dad and grandad I think, and on my dad's marriage cert. he states that his father is Albert Smith, even though we know his father was Harold. The name Albert comes up too many times for it to be made up.

I have looked at this 1911 record for Albert Peat, and I also thought it could be an army mate. If I could find Albert Peat's service record and link his battalion/unit to a similar record for Harold, this would be good. The service record would tell me who Harold's next of kin were.

Thanks very much for your interest.

Blue,
No I hadn't come across this before, but if for instance my grandmother had had another child and called it Rebecca after herself, the record would show the mother's maiden name to be Edgar. I don't think this is right.
Although, thinking about it, the registrar could have used Rebecca's married name as she was a widow, and not her maiden name of Edgar. I've seen this happen before.

Hi there your posting intrigued me with your elusive Smith's as I grew up in the area that you are researching namely Edge Hill and Dorothy street was a street of bay window parlour houses. I believe they have all gone now but there are some photos still to be found on the internet.
I had a similar experience as you in tracing my Gt. grandmother who came from a little village in Huntingdon to Liverpool where she met my Gt grandfather, I have still not found their marriage cert but I know for sure that her journey to Liverpool was via Edgebaston, Birmingham where she worked for a solicitor in 1881 and I think she gained enough confidence in working for them as domestic to later living in Liverpool and taking in boarders in a similar house to your grandparents. Perhaps your grandmother met her husband as he was a lodger to her.
I wonder in your case did your grandmother come to Liverpool with any of the family she worked for Have you looked for them in any records or directories for Liverpool? Just a long shot but sometimes the obscure ideas can work. Lots of luck L.B