Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi I am needing help please.
I am looking for my grand fathers family Thomas Smith who was an unwanted child and sent to Canada in 1908.
I have received a birth certificate which i think is his,
Thomas Smith 9th October 1901, born Walton workhouse, mother Kate Smith, address 38, Raleigh Street Bootle. Her occupation is working in the Jute factory.
I have asked Liverpool records office to see if they have Walton workhouse records, and apparently there are none surviving.
On the 1901 census i can find her at 16, Bostock Street, lodging, with i think her friend, Martha, Mannion, which i think might be Morrison, just a mis read by the recorder. Both about the same age, working in the Jute string factory.
I think this Kate, was born 1886 and is younger than she states, as the other Kate Smiths 1883 around this time, are all with their parents, on 1901 census and i can find them going on to marry.
I think her family might have been James 1821 Ireland, mother Mary Ann 1826 Ireland, 1881 census the family are at 26 Dundas Street PR House Bootle.
1891, No james or Mary Ann died i believe. and the family split up. Thomas is staying now with his sisters Rose Deighan and he has Kate with him.
Do you think Mary Ann was too old to have Kate,?

I am in need of help, and i know you have some amazing sleuths in this society. If they are any researcher out there who would like to help i am happy to pay fees. Thanks

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Before you think about hiring researchers let's see if there is anything we can discover first.

Thanks very much, i will wait, before i pay, lets hope you have some Sherlocks in this society, i am sure they know Liverpool well, i live in Spain. Thanks

Here's a baptism record that appears to be for James and Mary Ann's son Andrew in Dublin:-

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... 7d40350714

It say's mother's maiden name was Lamber on the transcript but it actually says Lawless. See this other record:-

Name: Thomas Smith
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 15 Oct 1865
Birth Place: Balbriggan, Dublin, Ireland
Father's Name: James Smith
Mother's name: Mary Anne Lawless

The only English baptism I can find is for (John) James Smith at St Anthony's RC Liverpool:-




The later RC baptisms aren't available because they were living in Bootle a pity because had they been living in Liverpool we might have had online access to Kate's baptism.



Blue

Thanks for that info, on andrew, on the 1881 they have mary Ann date of birth incorrect. However she should be approx 56 on 1881 do you think she was too old to,have kate in 1883-1886 it is rather old for a woman to have a baby. If james was 1821 and she was approx 1826?? Guessing this age though thanks anyhow good piece of info with the birth so very much appreciated

Just to add in 1901 census Kate 18 is listed as a visitor. The lassie above Margaret "Mannion" is a lodger 18, both born in Bootle. Both are listed as labourer's at crossed out factory. 16 court Bostock St Bootle.
RG13/3460/93/23

Peter's only 1 year old on the 1881 Census so it shows the family were still having children so another child is a possibility. He's in the Cottage Homes in Fazakerley in 1891. The mother's maiden name Lawless could help you determine if they had a child called Kate when ordering a possible birth certificate.


Blue

Hi,
The factory they both work at on 1901 is the Jute, if you look closely under the crossed out section, you can see it. Took me ages, but i managed to discipher, I use it all the time it is a string and i am a florist.!! I also found Bridget at Frazerley children home.
I think the young girl staying with Kate lodging at 16, Bostock Street, on 1901, is Martha Morrison, not Mannion. Maybe a neighbour of theirs, in Bootle, Kate got into the family way, no mother, no father, and went lodging, seems a dam good bet to me. Thanks all, every little bit helps.

Do we know if Kate married? I was looking at this marriage the address for this Kate is the right area but the father's name is Cornelius. On the 1911 Census Kate has become Catherine and is living at 9 Matthew Street.






Blue

No not thie family I have investigated this one and I know a family member well. This kate is with MaryNeil,(Cornelius) smith on 1901 census. Certainly not Cornelius smith daughter kate

The only way to investigate the possibility of Kate being the daughter of James and Mary Ann is to try to order the birth certificate. You only want it if the parents are James Smith and Mary Ann Lawless.


Blue

yes i will order tomorrow. Thanks. I wish i could find Kate on 1911 census. There are 3 or 4 kate Smith marrying, but all end up with families, and i can trace, the marriage on Liverpool marriage certs, Catholic and Protestant. Where did she go.

It's a pity we can't see a marriage online for Thomas' mother Kate Smith if she'd still been working in the factory it would link the birth of Thomas and her family through her father's name. There's a difference in the age of the Kate who appears to be the daughter of James and Mary Ann who is living with siblings in 1891 and the factory worker in 1901. Perhaps she is pretending to be older. Kate's birth may be registered as Catherine. The Kate Smith registered in the last quarter of 1887 in West Derby appears to be too young to me. Perhaps one of the Catherine Smiths born 1885/86 is the daughter of James and Mary Ann? Their local church might have been St Alexander RC their records were destroyed in WW2.

Have you ordered a birth certificate? I would order from the GRO giving name as Catherine or Kate Smith, no GRO reference, just the year 1886 (they will search each year either side), place of birth as Bootle, Lancashire and the parents details the mother's maiden name as Lawless is useful to put in.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... efault.asp


Blue

I think i have the hang of ordering birth certificates, i am the proud owner of 44 Thomas Smith birth certificates from 1900 to 1903 districts, Liverpool, West Derby, and Toxeth not certain as yet who to leave them to in my will!!??? i will order a search from GRO of Catherine and Kate with mum names of Mary Ann Lawless, thank so much for all your input.
I also think Kate was saying she was younger then she actually was.
The other 3 Katie 1883 i can find all married on and i can find a paper trail for them all. Or i can find them living with their parents on 1901 census, this is just the lose Kate, or Catherine.

I have made a little progress today, i think the Catherine Kate, ended up marrying John Deegan, in 1905/6 in West Derby Reg office. Deegan can be Deighnam also.
I can find Peter Smith the next up from Kate Smith at Rooney Street, at Bootle. on 1901 census

Her sister Rose Ann Smith 1868 the eldest of the Smith girls, inIreland, who also married a Deighnam chap, Edward. they had two children Edward 1890 and Elizabeth E 1896

Can anyone tie these two Deegan together, or, Deighnam seems strange both girls should marry boys with the same names. Feel like i am making progress today.

Any thoughts and help would be great Thanks

dawnebob wrote:I have made a little progress today, i think the Catherine Kate, ended up marrying John Deegan, in 1905/6 in West Derby Reg office

I'm assuming that you have found this marriage for 1905 on lancashirebmd.org.uk where it gives the Church/Register Office as "West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended".

Might the religion be RC? as that entry could also refer to a marriage in an RC or Non Conformist Church.

dawnebob wrote:i am the proud owner of 44 Thomas Smith birth certificates from 1900 to 1903 districts, Liverpool, West Derby, and Toxeth not certain as yet who to leave them to in my will!!???

Does this mean that they have all been discounted as not your ancestor? The Society accepts unwanted certificates and lists them in case they are of benefit to others.

When I have solved my mystery of course you can have them and others I have ordered in my quest to sort this riddle

Yep found the entry for west derby reg office 1905

The 1905 marriage appears to be the correct one as John and Catherine Deegan with two children and Catherine's brother Peter Smith are living in the same household in 1911 (25 Rooney Street). They probably married at St Alexander's RC church. I think the Edward who married Rose A Smith and the John who married Catherine/Kate were brothers see below baptisms from St Anthony's RC Liverpool and third baptism from St Sylvester's RC Liverpool shows a child of Edward and Rose A with a godmother called Lawless.











Blue

Well done you, if you look one of the padrino - godfather father is a frank lawless. Kate smith mum I think was a Mary Ann lawless, who married james smith just outside of Dublin in 1864. Thnaks good hunting. I just hope I am in the right trial waiting for the gro and catherine/kate smith 1885.