Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I have just received the marriage certificate of my paternal Great Grandfather - Walter FLANAGAN

He married Mary Ann DOUGHERTY on 4th October 1899 at St. Vincent de Paul Catholic Church.

I've found with other members on my paternal side were mainly baptised or married at St. Vincent de Paul so I've had some joy with the records on Ancestry.

However, I now have an issue with Mary Ann Dougherty!!

On the marriage certificate her age is given as 21, and her father is John Dougherty a labourer, living in Norfolk Street.

There is a baptism entry on 27th October 1878 (born 21st October 1878) at St. Vincent de Paul for Mary Ann DOGHERTY (near enough) with a father John (as per the marriage certificate) and a mother of Mary Ann Dogherty (nee CULLEN).

The date of birth seems to tie in with the baptism record, however, there is a second baptism, again at St. Vincent de Paul on 10th September 1882 (born 5 September 1882) for Mary Ann DOGHERTY, with a father called John and a mother called Mary Ann Dogherty (nee CULLEN)!

Naturally, I assumed that my great grandmother Mary Ann lied about her age on her marriage certificate, and she is the second Mary Ann baptised in 1882, and she must have had a sister born previously (1878) who sadly passed away in childhood.

However, this is where I am now unsure, and am wondering whether Mary Ann actually had 2 baptisms for some reason!

On the first baptism record, there has been an entry written in above the date of birth which says something along the lines of I.M 9/9/?? (or could be G.M. or J.M. and I can't make out the last 2 numbers).

If the last 2 numbers are 82 (which is possible) - and 9/9/82 is the day before 10/9/82 when the second Mary Ann was baptised.

Also, I can't find any record of Mary Ann Dougherty (born 1878) in any death records.

Census entries don't help either!!

I can't find a family of John Dougherty, Mary Ann Dougherty spouse and Mary Ann Dougherty child in the 1881 Census, which would appear to point to my original thoughts.

However I can't find them in the 1891 Census either so I can't determine the age of Mary Ann (John's daughter).

The 1901 Census sees Mary Ann living with her husband Walter Flanagan at 11 Brick Street Liverpool (RG13/P3415/F65/Page 25) in which her age is given as 22 - pointing to the 1878 birth of Mary Ann.

However, the 1911 Census, where the family are now at 37 Greenland Street (RG14/P22207) sees Mary Ann giving her age as 28 - which points to a birth date around 1882-ish - the same era as the baptism of the second Mary Ann.

So are the baptism records for the same person, or is my original idea of 2 daughters (one of whom died very young) is most likely?

I would post some images, however, I acccessed Ancestry from the Library and have not got a copy of them at present.

I get the feeling there are two or more Mary Anns, perhaps to different couples, if not then I'm really muddying the waters here.





The first one I found, without putting in a date, just parents names, turned this up for St Patricks.

PS That number looks to me like 9/9/95. I wonder what marriages took place at St Vincent de Paul on that date?

There also appears to be a further 2 children baptised at St Vincents to John and Mary Ann
John 17 feb 1884 24 Feb 1884
Elizabeth 13 feb 1886 22 feb 1886

Are these also related to Mary Ann?
May help to try and find the family in the census, also try searching the census without the surname just in case name has either been mistranscribed or even misheard and written as a different name. I found a family in 1881 with a John, Mary A and daughter Mary A aged 1 listed as McDonoghue.

Southbank Kat wrote:There also appears to be a further 2 children baptised at St Vincents to John and Mary Ann
John 17 feb 1884 24 Feb 1884
Elizabeth 13 feb 1886 22 feb 1886

This could possibly be a burial for this Elizabeth Dougherty:

Ford Cemetery
Name: Elizabeth Dougherty
Age: 6 months
Buried: August 25th 1886
Residence: 19 Brick St
Grave: 1893

There is also a burial for a Mary Ann Dougherty:

Ford Cemetery
Name: Mary Ann Dougherty
Age: 4 months
Buried: 4th February 1883
Residence: Brick Street
Grave: SV 1001
(This is possibly the Mary Ann Dougherty baptised on 5th Sep 1882?)

Could this be too much of a coincidence.
1881
4 Court, 1 House Brick Street, Liverpool
John Docherty Head M 21 Dock Labourer Liverpool
Mary A Wife M 21 Ireland
Bridget daur 2 Liverpool
Cathrine daur 9 months Liverpool

Two doors away
Michael Cullen Head M 40 Brick Lab Ireland
Anna Wife M 40 Ireland
Michael son 6 Scholar Liverpool
Elizabeth daur 10 Scholar Liverpool
RG11; Piece: 3617; Folio: 87; Page: 46

Might Bridget be a pet name for Mary Ann?

From Lancs BMD:

Marriage, 1877
West Derby Register Office or Registrar Attended
Mary A Cullen & John Dougherty

Just found the above marriage mistranscribed on Ancestry.

It took place on 9th July 1877 at St. Patrick's RC Church.

John Dougherty of 4/6 Brick Street, the son of James
Mary Ann Cullen of 1/6 Darnley Street, the daughter of Michael

A big huge thank you for everyone's replies and help. It seems there is still some detective work to be done, but I've taken on board everyone's suggestions and findings and should make things a bit easier (I hope!!)

I think that the 1877 marriage found by Karen are Mary Ann's parents, however......

...looking through the Marriage Indexes - it appears that there was a Mary Ann Cullen who - possibly - married a John Doherty in 1880 which was registered in Canterbury, Kent. Could they have moved up to Liverpool at some point and had a daughter who was named after her mother?? What would the chances of that be?

One plus point is that for two of the baptisms there is a godmother with the surname of Cullen hopefully that may well help out.

Evening all - quick update on this one. Was on the back burner, and I've now picked i back up again using the new GRO search facility to try and shed some light which I think I've managed to do.

The Mary Ann who was born and baptised in October 1878 appears to have been registered as Bridget Dougherty in Q4 1878 in Liverpool (Vol 8b Page 122).

The Mary Ann who was born and baptised in September 1881 appears to have been registered as Mary Ann Dougherty in Q4 1882 in Liverpool (Vol 8b Page 110).

The Mary Ann who was born and baptised in May 1888 may have been registered as Alice Dougherty in Q2 1888 in Liverpool (Vol 8b Page 131). This is the only Liverpool registered in Q2 in 1888 - however, the mother's maiden name is given as Bulman (rather than Cullen) - but I can't really rule out a mis-transcription at this stage.

Unfortunately, despite this new information, I still can't seem to find this family in the 1891 census.

So it appears that the three girls were all registered under different forenames, but were all baptised as Mary Ann. Anyone know if there is any kind of religious thing behind this at all? I know the family were Roman Catholic but just wondering why the family would register three different names but have all three baptised with the same name.

The only thing I can think of is that if the child was sickly they may have wanted to have her baptised quickly and just chose the first name they liked, however if she survived they may have chosen a name for her and registered that.