Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Firstly to say hello to everyone here. I am particularly interested in information on any of the following families in the West Derby area of Liverpool:

CLEARY - originally from Clonmel, Tipperary and later moved to Altrincham
BENT - mariner family (?), connections also in Manchester
BROWN - Linked to the BENT family
BARTON - Linked to the BENT and PATTINSON family, generally around Old Swan, Everton and Wavertree
PATTINSON

Looking forward to hearing from anyone and reading posts here.

Steve Cleary

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Please clarify when you say "West Derby" if you mean the village of that name or the registration district which covers much larger area, including some of those you mention, Old Swan, Everton and Wavertree and many more.

It would be better if you gave dates and actually specified any queries that we were able to help you with.

Hi Steve welcome aboard.
Time lines would be good to search your family history.
Good luck

Thanks for the welcome. Sorry, I am looking for any further information that might be available on the following people / families at present:

Richard CLEARY b1837, Clonmel. Moved to Liverpool between March 1864 and 1866? with son Patrick, b Clonmel 1864. Had two sons born in Waterloo, Richard (c1866, my great-grandfather) and James (b 1868). Family moved to Altrincham, where they appear in 1871 census. Looking for any records on their time in Liverpool – where did they live etc. I know the family back in Clonmel were carpenters / joiners. Is there any source of records for this trade I could research?

Albert Edward BENT – b 4 May 1872, West Derby (don't know where). Baptism, 24 Jun 1872 St Peter’s Liverpool. Married Margaret Ellen BARTON – 7 July 1891, St Mary’s Wavertree. Father was a William Joseph BENT (b 20 Oct 1837, Liverpool and married Ann Amanda BROWN on 29 Jul 1867 at St. Albans Church. Bevington Bush Liverpool.) Looking for any clues on what happened to Albert (my great-grandfather) after my grandfather left Liverpool with his mother when he was a toddler for Manchester when she split up from Albert. I have a record for a marriage between Albert and a Catherine Chambers in the West Derby registration district in 1914, but unsure as to what happened next. I know the family were originally mariners – Albert’s grandfather was a mariner called Joseph Bent (b Plymouth 23 May 1806) who married a Jane Ward on 25 Aug 1833 in St Peter’s Liverpool. Is there a separate online record anywhere for Liverpool mariners during the early to mid 19th century?

Would be really interested in anyone who can provide any leads.

Steve Cleary

There are a number of entries for a Joseph Bent, seemingly of the correct age on Findmypast, if you don't have access it could be worth your while investing in a few credits as these documents may give you clues as to when he came to Liverpool and which ships he sailed on.

Hi Steve,

The two sons born in Waterloo may have been baptised in Bootle unfortunately these records are not with the Liverpool RC records on Ancestry. Here are possible birth indexes for ordering birth certificates that would show the full address for the family at the time of the births:-

Name: Richard Cleary
Registration Year: 1865
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 465

Name: James Cleary
Registration Year: 1870
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 481

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


Blue

"Albert Edward BENT – b 4 May 1872, West Derby (don't know where). Baptism, 24 Jun 1872 St Peter’s Liverpool."

The image on Ancestry says they lived in Severs Street and the father's occupation was porter.


Blue

1911 Kirkdale census has Albert E Bent 38 horse keeper and wife Margaret E 39 bn Wavertree,
Elsie 10 bn Rusholme Mancs as well as Albert E 7.
Mother Amanda Ann 63 widow bn Lpl.
What I have found staggering for this family that they had 11 children and 9 had died!
1901 Albert is in Rusholme ostler for the tramways with Margt & little Elsie.

If Albert Edward Bent, Bn 1872, previously married to Margaret Ellen Barton married Catherine Chambers, 1914. It appears he named another son Albert E Bent. The first Albert E seems to be still alive at that time.


Births Sep 1915
BENT Joan, Chambers W.Derby 8b 513
Births Sep 1916
Bent Albert E, Chambers W. Derby 8b 559
Births Dec 1921
Bent Richard, Chambers W.Derby 8b 547

If Richard Cleary's wife had the maiden name of Lloyd there were 2 sons born in Waterloo Thomas 1868 who appears to have died the same year and James in 1869. These show on http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk put in South Sefton for the district as that is the area that now covers Waterloo. Richard's birth appears to be this one

West Derby Dec Quarter 1865 volume 8b page 465

If the family was Church of England the baptisms would have been at St Luke's Great Crosby or Sefton church which was the parish church or Christ Church Waterloo.

If they were RC the baptisms would have been at St Peter and St Paul Great Crosby.

Added later

Thomas Cleary was buried at St Peter and St Paul RC Great Crosby on 10 September 1868. Sadly he was aged 7 minutes.

My guess is that the children were baptised at St Peter and St Paul.

Could those births be for a different family? I had James Cleary's birth as registered in 1870. Free BMD has the 1869 birth as James Clare.

The births I suggested:-

Name: Richard Cleary
Registration Year: 1865
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 465

Name: James Cleary
Registration Year: 1870
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 481

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


Blue

I was only going by the fact that 2 Clearys I found were born in Waterloo. The other thing was the burial.

I think we need the OP to come back and tell us who Richard was married to. I wonder if he has the sonRichard's birth certificate?

There's a Private Tree on Ancestry with. Richard Leary marrying Margaret Lloyd in 1863 in Clonmel so it does seem a possibility that the children I found could be correct.

Sorry Hilary you were right. Steve has a tree on Ancestry and the mother's name on there is Margaret Lloyd. Parents marriage in Clonmel on 15 April 1863
Patrick as follows per Irish Births and Baptisms:-

Name: Patrick Cleary
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 18 Mar 1864
Birth Place: Clonmel, Tipperary, Ireland
Father's name: Richard Cleary
Mother's name: Margaret Lloyd

He has Richard born in 1865 but no birth date. James he has a Liverpool 1868 birth that has to be wrong. My 1870 Q1 birth was going by the 1871 Census age for James not sure about that now. The 1869 Q4 birth is also near to that age although it has James Clare on Free BMD. If it's the same as the Lancs BMD birth then 1869 would appear to be right.


Blue

Somebody left a message for Steve in 2011 about the 1865 birth index for Richard Cleary:-

"Message returned by GRO to say this document does not exist and has been transcribed/recorded incorrectly. No alternative nor solution identified nor found"


Blue

Is Steve responding behind the scenes or have you managed to gain access to this tree?

Hi Mary,

Steve has a public tree on Ancestry he hasn't been in touch.


Blue

To summarise Richard was probably born in 1865 but you may not be able to get the birth certificate from the GRO as per the message left on your tree on Ancestry. This birth is not on Lancs BMD only on Free BMD. There was a Thomas Cleary born and died in Waterloo in 1868. There's a birth of a Thomas Cleary on Lancs BMD with mother as Lloyd so that's right. Free BMD has a Thomas Cleary born Q1 1868 and a Thomas Nicholas Cleary born Q3 1868. You would have thought the Q3 was right with the burial record saying he died aged 7 minutes in September 1868 but the Thomas Nicholas Cleary born in Q3 was the son of Thomas Cleary and Ellen Metcalf he was born on 11 September 1868 and baptised at SFX Church on 20 October 1868. The 7 minutes old Thomas Cleary may actually be 7 month old Thomas Cleary who was born in Q1 1868. James Cleary must have been born in 1869 as per Lancs BMD as they have the mother's name as Lloyd. Free BMD probably have this birth as James Clare in Q4 1869.


Blue

As Hilary said the three Waterloo born children might have been baptised at St Peter & St Paul RC Great Crosby. These records are not in Liverpool or online. Copies of original registers: Baptisms for 1865-1941 are held by Lancashire Record Office on microfilm (MF 9/62 111):-

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Gr ... Paul.shtml


Blue

I think they may have some St Peter and Paul RC records at Crosby.

If the OP comes back I might be prepared to ask at our help desk at Crosby a week on Friday.

There is always the possibility that the child Richard wasn't born in Waterloo at all as he definitely doesn't appear on the South Sefton births on Lancsbmd which were transcribed in the register office.

If the OP wants to know where the family lived in Waterloo he needs to buy a birth certificate for one of the two children definitely born in Waterloo.