Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I sent away for a death certificate for Ann Houghton who appears to have died in 1867 in Warrington. As I didn't specify a GRO ref then a year either side was researched.

(Information that I had received indicated her death as 14 Sept 1867 aged 82 but I was also sent information that specified her burial as 19 Feb 1867, aged 82, at Winwick Church.)

Sadly the GRO found no death certificate in their records for any of the years searched.

In 1861 she is at her daughter (Hannah KING) and son in law's household on Winwick Road, Warrington, aged 76.

Previously in 1851 she is aged 65, a messenger, living at Pipers Hole, Newton In Makerfield with her grandson John Houghton aged 11. She appears to be at the same address in 1841 as an "Ind" with her daughter Hannah and the grandson John.

The burial source lists four Houghton members in the same plot:
Mary aged 90 d. 1905
James aged 67 d. 1880 (Mary's husband - speculate)
Ann aged 82 d. 1867 (James' mother - speculate)
John aged 50 d. 1835 (James' father - speculate)

This leads me to think that this is possibly Ann's marriage:

Marriage: 9 Oct 1809 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
John Houghton - (X), of this Parish
Hannah Unsworth - (X), of this Parish
Witness: Wm. Jackson; Thos. Walker
Banns Read: 10 Sep 1809, 2nd: 17 Sep 1809, 3rd: 24 Sep 1809
Married by Banns by: Gs. Chippindall Curate
Register: Marriages 1766 - 1812, Page 842, Entry 38
Source: LDS Film 1885708

could this be her baptism:

Baptism: 10 Sep 1786 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Ann Unsworth - Daur of Thomas Unsworth & Ellen
Occupation: Carpenter
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 61, Entry 1900
Source: LDS Film 1562957

if only I had her death certificate!

As you haven't said where your "information" came from, we might speculate that it was somebody else's research, and has this source any evidence to support the death entry. The reason I would question this is that the only two entries for this name in Warrington in 1867 give ages of either 71 or 68.

Two different people may have given the information for the death register and separately the burial register.

Please ask your source for evidence.

just had a look on ancestry to see if anything there and found these:-

Ann Houghton
Gender: Female
Age: 82
Birth Date: 1785
Burial Date: 19 Feb 1867
Burial Place: Winwick (St. Oswald), Lancaster, England
FHL Film Number: 1885712
Reference ID: pg 18 #143


Ann Houghton
Gender: Female
Age: 68
Birth Date: 1799
Burial Date: 27 Sep 1867
Burial Place: Winwick (St. Oswald), Lancaster, England
FHL Film Number: 1885712
Reference ID: pg 24 #192

guess this might be were the confusion stems!

Sorry - what I forgot to ask was, would a death certificate have to be shown to the church before someone was buried back then or could someone be buried without producing a death certificate?

thanks.

That sounds most unlikely, it is necessary nowadays, even obtained by the funeral director themselves, however, I don't know just how vigilant they would have been then. Any ideas anybody?

The Ann buried in September was from Croft according to the register image. The one in February was from Warrington. The only way to see if she is the one you want is to get the death certificate of the Ann dying at the right time in Warrington.

I agree with Mary that the person who registered the death and the person arranged the burial may have been two different people leading to the different ages being given.

I can't find anything definitive online to cover the historical authority to bury but I would have thought it would have been usual practice to ask about the cause of death or check any paperwork about the cause of death. The accuracy of other details collected for the burial record would depend on the person giving the information and the person recording it.

"Even to-day, when civil law assumes all responsibilities, the Church has at least a nominal authority over our dead, for she it is who receives the body at the entrance to the burial-place, demanding an assurance that the cause of death has been investigated before conducting the remains to the grave prepared for its reception and safekeeping till the day of Resurrection."

- "Funeral Customs" by Bertram S. Puckle [1926]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/fcod/fcod11.htm



Blue

Thanks for the info but I never applied directly for the death certificate of Ann Houghton who died in 1867 aged 71 because of this 1861 entry:

Ann Houghton
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: 1796
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Warrington, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Warrington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Warrington
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Living home alone at 24 Dallam Lane, a widow and a school mistress.

I'm puzzled why Ann (aged 82) is missing - I've tried various first name and surname spellings but nothing comes close in the online records.

It seems at the mo as if no certificate was written.

Have you applied only to the GRO for the death certificate, or have you applied to the local Register Office - there are many mistakes in the indexes and between the local and the general registers is just one place where this could take place.

It would be quite unlikely for a death not to be registered.

hi MaryA
I applied online to GRO. I'll have to look again at all those missing details in my tree with new eyes!

Perhaps she died elsewhere and was brought back to Warrington for burial. There is an Ann Houghton aged 82 dying in the right quarter but miles from Warrington.

You have to eliminate the Ann that you have found in the 1861 census and the only way I can think of doing it is by getting the death certificate.

There is an Ann Houghton dying in 1866 in Warrington who could fit the school teacher one.

The age may seem a little bit out but have you discounted this lady in 1871 in Warrington workhouse
Class: RG10; Piece: 3907; Folio: 140; Page: 6; GSU roll: 842047

Ann Houghton b Warrington , widow, O.W Day room, Factory Hand, Epileptic
Age:82
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1789

I notice a few more Houghton's in there too.

Simone

Education Officer wrote:There is an Ann Houghton aged 82 dying in the right quarter but miles from Warrington.

I think you mean the Ashton under Lyne one Hilary?

That lady looks to be in Ashton under lyne area in 1861
Class: RG 9; Piece: 2990; Folio: 28; Page: 16;
Ann Haughton 76 b Broadoak.


Simone x

The 82 year old I saw was in Fareham Hampshire.

thanks for the posts - I had a prompt reply from Warrington Register Office - yes they do have an Ann HOUGHTON aged 82 of Winwick Road in their entries for 1867! Thanks for suggesting it MaryA.

Success! often lateral thinking does the trick.

She died 15 Feb 1867 at 53 Winwick Road.

note on certificate "for 82 substitute 71 corrected on 19 Feb 1867" John and Hannah KING in attendance of correction.

very confusing but at least it is the correct one!

Glad you got a good result.