Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am going to try and get to the Liverpool Library tomorrow while the team are there. I am searching for a birth/baptism from 1839. I have already posted details about this on the site so i won't bore you again. Just wondered if anyone can suggest which church records i should search if they lived in Harrington ST, Lower Stationers Court. They are definitely catholic.
If i don't have any luck there has anyone ever sent a census to GRO to see if they can find a birth. I have tried the usual route not saying i know the Page number and they returned my money.
Thanks
Lin

I have just had my money returned from Liverpool Register Office as they couldn't find mine with an approximate date and the name of the father.

I am waiting for one (with fingers crossed) to come back from the GRO.

I tried both to see if one was better than the other.

I was surprised that both only do a search for one year either side of the year you've given, for some reason I though it was more than that. Only problem is with the Liverpool one I didn't note down what year I asked for and I'm now waiting for an email for elimination purposes........

I think a few of us looked for the Edward Brown c1839 RC baptism on Ancestry and couldn't find it. At that time the nearest RC church to Harrington Street Toxteth was St Patrick's at Park Place. There was also St Peter's in Seel Street which was traditionally popular with south enders as it was the church they used before St Patrick's opened. Other churches:- St Mary's located in or near to Edmund Street off Old Hall Street, St Anthony's in Scotland Road and St Nicholas Copperas Hill. All these churches' baptisms c1839 are on Ancestry so I don't think a visit to the Record Office will produce better results:-

http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... =2&t=14258


Blue

Thanks Blue have you any other suggestions as to what i can try as he is on the census. I have been over once and searched St Nicholas as if it is her that is mainly were her children from the first marriage were baptised.
Do you think i could write to the GRO and enclose the 1841 census were he is 2 and see if that brings any results.
Thanks for helping me again
Lin

I don't think referencing the census will help things if the birth was not registered at all. You might be requesting something that doesn't exist. I was looking at that Brown family again and Edward's siblings Samuel and Jane both appear to have married at St John The Baptist CE and none of their children appear in the RC baptisms on Ancestry so perhaps that Brown family were C of E?

-Jane Brown (18) married James Crane at St John The Baptist CE Toxteth on 21 August 1855 (Father: John Brown, rigger)

-Samuel Brown (21) married Jane Jones at St John The Baptist CE Toxteth on 5 April 1857 (Father: John Brown, mariner)


Blue

There's two entries for the Brown family on the 1841 Census they both just have the parents not born in Lancashire "no" so they were not born in Ireland they must have been born in a county in England/Wales other than Lancashire.


Blue

I had the 2 marriages but i did not realise that St John the Baptist was not Catholic.
This one is a real hard one. I will just list the facts and see if you can see any light at the end of the tunnel for me.
Mary TORPENTEN married Henry Ingram in 1822 certificate on Ancestry. I can't find anyone with the name Torpenten on any census.
Twice Mary A has posted on my posts and put Mary as Torkinton. I have also found this myself and Patrick Turkington is listed as a godfather to one of her children. Patrick Turkington is in the fever hospital in 1841 and he states he is from Ireland.
Bertieone found a Mary Torkington born in 1807 father William and mother Jane Basker so she would only be 15 in 1822 if this is the one who married Henry. This is the only Mary been found. I cannot find anything else on her was hoping she married and listed her father as William to rule her out but no such luck.
I presumed Mary was from Ireland as i have had such difficulty finding anything out about her.
Mary and Henry do not appear on any census together. There is a possible for a Henry Ingram on the 1841 census which again was found by the team here. No further trace and the 1841 census does not provide much info but it does say born Ireland. I can't find a death for a Mary Ingram/Ingham. I know when she had her last child that i have found so it would have to be between then and 1841 so at least it's not too many years to search but no trace as yet.
I've also had trouble with Ingram/Ingham. Not sure which is correct.
So to sum up i don't know either Marys or Henrys last names for definite and i don't know where they were born or what year they were born. It does tend to make the job harder. There are lots of Torkingtons Manchester way but again no proof they are mine.
Knowing about the church now does make this one seem unlikely so back to the drawing board.
Thank you so much Blue70 for all your help you really do make a difference.
Lin

Sorry I don't have a lot of time to take it all in, in depth, perhaps we will see you this afternoon. But I'm noticing that you mention a previous marriage, could it be that the child was registered/baptised in the mother's maiden name or even in the previous married name? could have been conceived or even born before they were married. When looking through either the indexes or parish registers, take a note of all three surnames you come across.

Hi Lin

Do you have this burial at Liverpool St John
13/04/1835
Henry Ingram, age 4 months, son of Henry and Mary Ingram, Litherland, Alley tailor. Papist.

also this one at same church, also says Papist, address Litherland
Mary Ingram
Gender:Female
Age:7
Birth Date: 1828
Burial Date:20 Sep 1835
Burial Place:Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Henry Ingram, Alley Tailor
Mother: Mary Ingram


Simone

I'm a little confused by all this! So I thought I'd write down my thoughts to try and clarify the issue. If I have it wrong please correct me.

Are you suggesting that
1. Mary Torkington (with whatever spelling) married Henry Ingram in 1822 this marriage being on Ancestry

2. Henry dies and Mary then remarries a John Brown - is there actual factual evidence if this marriage?

3. John and Mary Brown nee Ingram formerly Torkington have a son Edward Brown the GRO can find no such child so do you have other corrobating evidence?

4. What evidence do you have that your Edward Brown was the son of the above?

5. What evidence do you have that the 1841 census you think is your family actually is your family?

Other possible facts that could relate to the persons above

Henry Ingram and his wife had 2 children who were buried at St John C of E recorded as Papist (RC)

Henry and Mary Ingram are together in September 1835 when their child is buried. Well according to the burial record

Their last child that I can find was christened in 1832.

1841 census records a Henry Ingram as a tailor with Thomas Harvey and Margaret Harvey at possibly Nash St Liverpool

2 children of the 1841 census of John and Mary Brown marry in C of E churches

If it was my family I think I'd start again with the child of an Edward Brown who was my known ancestor.

I have Australian visitors this weekend to whom I am distantly related (5th cousins). I have been revisiting my family to do a bit of a tour with them and realised some years on that there are parts of my research that some years later I can see is wrong in some cases glaringly so (holds head in shame but in mitigation that was 10 years ago and is not my direct line) and in others there has been a case of 'well it must be that because......' And it isn't and the answer was staring me in the face!

Also John and Mary Brown on the 1841 Census have "no" for born in Lancashire and the next box empty so they were not born in Ireland but born somewhere in England/Wales. Lin thought Mary T*ton was likely born in Ireland. This fact and the religion appearing to be different rules out this Brown family having a link to the T*tons.


Blue

The 1841 Census Hilary mentioned:-

Piece: 559 Book: 16 Page Number: 1

Nash Street, Islington

Thos Harvey, 35, Tailor, Ireland
Margt Harvey, 25, Tailor, Ireland
Henry Ingram, 40, Tailor, Ireland


Blue

Lin,

Does your line descend from one of the Ingram children? Is the mystery here what happened to Mary Ingram formerly T*ton? If so I can't find a burial record for her. It's possible if they were both Irish that they went back to Ireland for a time or if she was ill she may have gone to stay with relatives in Ireland.


Blue

Hi
Mary A sorry i am not coming today after Blue70 saying the births i was looking for should be on ancestry i decided to wait till i know what i am doing.
Simone i have those two they had at least 6 children and 4 died.
Henry born 14/12/1825 baptised 18/12/1825 and buried 14/4/1825
Mary born 1828 and buried 20/9/1835 aged 7
Ann born 18/1/1831 buried 8/5/1831
Sarah Ann born 1832 and buried 29/4/1833 aged 8 months

Two daughters survived Elizabeth born 14/11/1826 she married John Kehoe and went to Australia in 1873.
My husbands direct line is Margaret Ingram born 30/6/1826 and on ancestry it states Marys name as Torpenton again.
Hilary i was trying to find Mary from 1841 and i know a Patrick Turkington was godfather to one of her children. Patrick died in 1844 and a Mary Brown reported the death whilst looking for this checking neighbours etc i came across a Mary Ingram widow who married a John Brown in 1836. I have no idea if it is my Mary so i was trying to either prove it or eliminate her. John Brown was also a godfather to one of her children. I will go back to Margaret Ingram who married William Rumbold and start again. Only trouble is i have only found this family on a few census's.
Just one other thing Margaret's daughter Jane Rumbold went to Australia in 1874 aged 13 and married a German Ernst Wendt they went on to have 9 children all born Australia. Janes mother born Liverpool, Jane born Liverpool her husband born Germany and yet they have 2 shamrocks on the gravestone. Must be an Irish connection somewhere.
Blue i see what you are saying that she may have gone back to Ireland before 1841 but she had 2 daughters Margaret would have only been 10 to 15 between say 1836 and 1841. Also if Patrick Turkington is related he is in Liverpool.
I will go back and start again and see what i come up with.
Thank you all so much for all your help.
Lin

Torkington is a place within the parish of Stockport. I would imagine that Torkinton and Torkington families originate from that area. Certainly the name map on Ancestry suggests a high proportion of the surname in Cheshire and Lancashire with a lot in the Manchester area.

English, Welsh and Scots went over to Ireland at various times in history. Lancashire has always had strong links with Ireland. Looking at Irish Times site we have the following statistics:-

Ingram households in mid-19th century Ireland based on the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64

Antrim 30
Armagh 7
Belfast City 8
Cavan 7
Donegal 8
Down 29
Dublin 1
Dublin City 6
Fermanagh 16
Leitrim 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Tyrone 1
Waterford 1
Westmeath 1

Turkington households in mid-19th century Ireland based on the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64

Antrim 1
Armagh 39
Down 6
Dublin City 3
Limerick City 1
Roscommon 1
Tyrone 4
Westmeath 1

Torkington households in mid-19th century Ireland based on the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64

Down 2
Dublin City 3
Mayo 1

Turkinton households in mid-19th century Ireland based on the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64

Armagh 2


There's no sign of the Torpenton spelling or something similar


Blue

Education Officer wrote: 2. Henry dies and Mary then remarries a John Brown - is there actual factual evidence if this marriage?

This is the marriage on Lancs BMD Hilary, but nothing to suggest it is definitely the right Mary

Marriage: 14 Oct 1835 St John, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Brown - (X), Mariner, Liverpool
Mary Ingram - (X), Widow, Liverpool
Witness: Hannah Fitzgerald, (X); Francis Burns
Married by Banns by: Thos. Stringer Curate
Register: Marriage 1835 - 1837, Page 16, Entry 61
Source: LDS Film 1656197

Lancs bmd alos has the possible first marriage

Marriage: 28 Jan 1822 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Henry Ingram - (X), Tailor, this Parish
Mary Torkinton - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Ricard Prescott; James Covell
Married by Banns by: W. Horner, Offg. Minister
Register: Marriages 1821 - 1823, Page 32, Entry 39
Source: LDS Film 93917

Most of the Turkingtons on the Irish 1901 Census were Protestants of those who were RC most of them came from County Armagh. There's at least one mixed marriage somewhere going back in time in that line as people of that surname would have originally been Protestant and gone over to Ireland from England or Scotland. Likewise most Ingrams in Irish 1901 Census were Protestants.


Blue

Hi Hilary there are lots of Torkinton Turkington on Ancestry around Manchester. Samuel is quite a popular name but no Patricks that i can see.

Hi Simone i know there is no proof that this is the right marriage but i was trying to prove or disprove it by tracing those children. I was hoping to get a birth certificate for Edward which may have had the maiden name on and sorted that problem out. I think Blue is right now and that is probably not the right one. It is Lan opc that transcribed her name as Torkinton yet on the certificate on ancestry it does say Torpenton if i could find anyone named Torpenton i would explore that avenue.

Hi Blue thanks for all the figures from Ireland i will bear that in mind. I know the Patrick Turkingtons were definitely Papist as it says so on both burials.

Went back to Margaret Ingram and right away i hit a problem. She was born on 30/6/1826 and that one even states the mothers maiden name as Torpenton so must be her. She gets married in St Nicholas Church on the 13/6/1848 and she is listed as a minor yet she would be days away from her 22nd birthday.
Also William is listed as 23 years of age and yet on the 1871 census she is transcribed as 30 but it looks more like 39 to me and he is suddenly 46.
Makes me wonder if the first Margaret died and another one was born a few years later. Cannot find a death and another birth.
Back to the drawing board.
Thanks to you all for all your help.
Lin