Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello there,

This is my first post to the forum! I've started my (complicated!) family history research recently having always been interested but never doing much about it! Like a lot of people I suppose, the death of a key family member (my Nan) has evoked those feelings of regret as she passed taking some rather valuable information with her.
It's a long shot but I'm wondering if anyone out there can help? My Nan (Primrose Owens) was living as a single lady at Mrs Prout's lodging house 73 Hartington Road from around 1950 - 1958. She met a fellow lodger there, an Irish guy called Brendan P Creane. Family folklore would have you believe he was ex RAF WW2 (I doubt this but haven't checked) and became a travelling salesman...He is on records as living with a Kathleen Creane. My Nan fell pregnant and he disappeared. She didn't name him on any birth documents but at St Bedes, the name Brendan is down as the Father at my subsequent Mother's baptism in 1953.
Other residents in that house around the time were a Charlotte Meadows, Emily Wardrobe, Harold & Audrey Dixon and Reginald & Gladys Hodgson. There was also Gloria and Edgar Rogers who I believe were the daughter and husband of the landlady herself - Mrs Prout (using Prout, her maiden name for her 'business.') The Prout/Edgars I believe emigrated and ancestry.co.uk seems to show they have since deceased.

Just wondered if anyone out there has community links or can point me in a good direction?
Thank you.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The reason there would be no father named on the birth certificate is because Primrose was a single woman, and as no man went to the Registrar with her to verify that he was the father, she had to leave it blank. Good for her on giving a father's name on the baptism.

Does anybody in the family know her year of birth or even place of birth?

?

Primrose Owens
Mother's Maiden Surname:
Brown
Date of Registration:
Apr-May-Jun 1923
West Derby
Lancashire
Volume Number:
8b
Page Number:
862

Marriage?

Primrose Owens
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1965
Liverpool
Lancashire
Spouse:
Arthur Riley
Volume Number:
10d
Page Number:
558

It may be an idea to look to see if she went to court for maintenance money here is a thread about Affiliation Registers which are available to view for this period of time:-

https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... 24&t=15642


Blue

Thank you everyone.

Blue - I had no idea such things like this existed for research, thank you. I'll take a look. Knowing my Nan though she wouldn't have accepted a penny! I have found out from the electoral role that Brendan was there at Hartington Road 1951/52. My Nans DOB was 19.04.1923 and her mother was Alice Brown. She did indeed go on to marry the 'Grandfather' I knew Arthur Riley. He was amazing, he took my Nan and my Mum in as 'Housekeeper' around 1957 (my Mum seems to think she was 4 1/2) and they married eventually. My Mum's DOB is 25.06.1953 at Sefton Park Hospital (126 Smithdown.)

Family rumour has it a) Brendan was already married b) he was an ex RAf man in WW2 but since turned travelling salesman and c) his Mother offered to take my Mum in over in Ireland. Apparently he came from "somewhere near Waterford beginning with Lea!!" On ancestry there are few Brendan Creanes but I'm just stuck now with such sketchy info! Plus people who 'knew' seem to have all passed on. There was apparently "a couple of years" between him and Primrose.

The landlady Mrs Prout was formidable but she stood by my Nan and let her stay in the lodgings. She was so desperate she cleaned the steps of St Bedes and clearly the Vicar allowed her (?) to baptize my Mum?

Thank you everyone for your replies. It really helps having some pointers. I keep running around in circles and am discovering this is a fascinating hobby but everything comes at a cost too!!

I also didn't know she wouldn't have been allowed to put a name on the register if he wasn't there with her. I'm amazed my Nan was able to survive those first few years although apparently she had to put my Mum in Belmont Road workhouse for a day or so at times?!! I'm sure these records are available but it's more difficult when I live away thesedays!

Thanks all!

[Speculative] A Brendan P Creane married an Edna E Barsby in Welton in 1944, towards the end of WW2.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV8Y-PQY2

Welton in Lincolnshire was the home of an RAF base.
http://www.airshowspresent.com/raf-dunholme-lodge.html

Hi Luxor.

Yes, funnily enough I found 'Edna' this afternoon. I'd dismissed the record before as ancestry put it as 'Wilton, Wiltshire' and I felt that was too far but when looking at the actual record I saw it was 'Welton' and then discovered raf scrampton (?) That then led me to a listing site but no Creane could be found (not sure how detailed the records were though.) Then I found there's a Welton East Riding, Yorkshire with raf connections in WW2 but that's as far as I've got!

I thought I'd even try a different route and see what Edna E Barsby threw up , hoping to find certificates/kids etc but she's almost as elusive to find!! Although I don't seem to search ancestry with much luck generally!!

X

Horsley2016 wrote:Apparently he came from "somewhere near Waterford beginning with Lea!!"

A search of the Irish Census of 1911 shows only 76 Creanes (beware spelling variation, though). None of the Creanes was in Waterford; several were next door in County Wexford. Someone could have lived in rural Wexford and described their location as 'near Waterford', i.e. near Waterford town.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 003563725/

[Very speculative] This family...
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... un/678920/
... lived in a DED called 'The Leap':
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/the-leap/
Someone might describe that as 'near Waterford'.

[Yet more speculation] Could Waterford be misheard/lost-in-translation version of Westport in County Mayo?

A Brendan Patrick Crane was born in the Westport registration area in 1921:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1MV-S3G

A three-year-old Kathleen Creane lived in County Mayo in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 002973108/

A Brendan P Crean, estimated birth 1921, died in Cheltenham in 1967, aged 46:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVC2-GX87

Horsley2016 wrote:... I saw it was 'Welton' and then discovered raf scrampton (?) That then led me to a listing site but no Creane could be found...

If you do a search for 'Brendan Patrick Creane' on the British Newspaper Archive, the first result is from the Lincolnshire Echo, 17th May 1943. It says that Brendan Patrick Creane, R.A.F., was fined 10s. and his licence was endorsed for exceeding the speed limit with a motor lorry.
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.u ... unts=false

You say the rumour is that he was with the RAF, not necessarily a pilot or other flight crew. Maybe he was ground support? That might explain why he doesn't appear on lists? Just more speculation, but you can be sure that there was a Brendan Patrick Creane working for the RAF in Lincolnshire.

[Edit] If you search the BNA for 'edna barsby', the first result is the Lincolnshire Echo in 1942... age 19, Edna Emily Barsby was fined for driving a motor lorry carelessly!
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.u ... lse&page=0

Birth of an Edna E Barsby; right time, right place:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV3Z-LF9H

Edna E Creane
Date of Registration:
Oct-Nov-Dec 1969
Registration district:
Wilton (Welton)
Wiltshire
Spouse:
George F Wright
Volume Number:
3b
Page Number:
1099

Death,

Edna Emily Wright
Death Age:
75
Birth Date:
26 Feb 1923
Registration Date:
Apr 1998
Registration district:
Lincoln
Lincolnshire
Register Number:
B56C
District and Subdistrict:
6191B
Entry Number:
28

Dear all.

I have to say, I am overwhelmed at your kindness, thought, ideas and support from my post. I honestly thought I'd be zero replies. I have much information to chew the cud over now. Thank you. The fact you have chosen to research clearly in the 'right' areas (rather than my muddled ones!) has provided enormous clarity. I knew there wasn't too may Brendan Creane's in the UK but finding non data protected info is very hard. I've had more success finding relatives from the 1800's!!

I honestly can't thank you enough.

So have I now run out of 'free' to find information? Given Brendan P Creane was believed to 'pop back' at points during my Mother's childhood (and apparently sent packing with a door slammed in his face.) Plus an offer from his Mother in Ireland (who 'had a farm?' More hearsay!) to send £400 and bring up my Mum! our man in Lincoln seems likely. It looks like Edna Barsby who became Creane married someone else in the end...?

In your experience, what would you do next? How do I find if Edna and Brendan had any children? Or if they divorced or he died? Would splashing out on their marriage cert. offer any further light? It is possible the Irish locations are muddled. I know everything is 'near London' in the UK so maybe 'near Waterford' (with a crystal ornament link or something!) was the easiest? Are there any Irish census records? The ones I've found on ancestry seem only to provide a 'register' of information rather than detail... Electoral roles for Welton? Contact the RAF?

I am so appreciative of any help and guidance. I can't help but feel as a novice, having a 'normal' family would have been easier to get into this 'hobby!'

Mx

The marriage cert for Brendan & Edna will give you the fathers names and occupations, if Brendan's mother was a farmer, there's a good chance his father was as well, so may help clear that up.

Births, enter father's surname and mother's maiden name, plus variations for Creane, try a few years before marriage in case a child was born out of wedlock.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

I wouldn't think there was any divorce, Brendan died 1967 and Edna remarried 1969.

It looks like there was a small concentration of Creanes in Lincoln. I couldn't find children of 'Barsby', but there were Creane children born to O'Boyle, Scanlon, McCann and Kennedy. You can find them on the freebmd link Bert provided or on familysearch:
https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... %3Acreane~

It would seem possible that these were all from one family in Ireland; possibly your family. Some of them and their descendants will still be in Lincoln. We can't discuss living people here, but it shouldn't be hard to make contact with them.

There are Irish Census records available for 1901 and 1911. All previous ones have been destroyed. Later ones have not been released yet. There was no census in Ireland in 1921 due to the troubles. I think there was one around 1927. Normally that would be released in 2027 - there was a rumour of an imminent release but it hasn't happened to date.

Census records are here:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Do a search on Surname 'Creane' for 1911 and you will find that there were 76. Unfortunately, spelling variations occur so it's not impossible that your descendants were recorded as 'Crane' or something else...

luxor wrote:Could Waterford be misheard/lost-in-translation version of Westport in County Mayo?

A Brendan Patrick Crane was born in the Westport registration area in 1921:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1MV-S3G

A three-year-old Kathleen Creane lived in County Mayo in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 002973108/

A Brendan P Crean, estimated birth 1921, died in Cheltenham in 1967, aged 46:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVC2-GX87

This web page shows a link between the Lincolnshire Creanes and County Mayo:
http://www.family-announcements.co.uk/l ... ohn-creane

[Edit] This one is even better - the Lincolnshire Echo carried a death notice for a gentleman buried in Belmullet, County Mayo. That's right where the census link above recorded Kathleen Creane.
http://www.family-announcements.co.uk/l ... chy-creane

How I appreciate the knowledge of somebody who lives in N. Ireland. Referring to my earlier comment about not finding a birth registration - well what can I say but that I need to go to specsavers as I was searching for Owen rather than Owens, my mistake.

If you do go down the line of ordering the marriage certificate, which should, as has been said above, give you some information regarding Brendan's father and also his age at marriage (fingers crossed he didn't just put "full age"), I would just like to say not to use Ancestry to order the certificate, or any other subscription sites. Using the General Register Office site direct is the cheapest method, especially from abroad, to acquire a certificate at £9.25 inclusive of postage. You have above all the information you will need to order it, although you will need to register with the site, this is free to do.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... /Login.asp

Amazing stuff. I shall get to grips with it all over the weekend and keep you updated as to where I go with all your hard work on my behalf. It is lovely to find people who can, and are willing to, share their knowledge and skills. Once again, thank you.

Mary - great tip! I must admit, I nearly fell off my seat when I clicked "order marriage cert." on Ancestry and saw the cost! I was cursing BBC's 'Who Do You Think You Are' series for creating popularity and therefore, surely, a price hike in such resources!


Mx

Edna Barsby probably had brothers Steve P and Eric C W.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... 3Aproctor~

This Ancestry tree shows Steve Proctor Barsby; it may be worth contacting the owner:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/ ... 6395/facts

luxor wrote:[Yet more speculation] Could Waterford be misheard/lost-in-translation version of Westport in County Mayo?

A Brendan Patrick Crane was born in the Westport registration area in 1921:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1MV-S3G

A three-year-old Kathleen Creane lived in County Mayo in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 002973108/

A Brendan P Crean, estimated birth 1921, died in Cheltenham in 1967, aged 46:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVC2-GX87

Luxor said that he died in 67 and she remarried in 69 so that follows nicely. Sometimes it is difficult to keep all the facts in your head. Well it does in mine.

Mary's huge list of Irish links, including details on ordering Irish copy certificates...

https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... 14&t=13912