Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi

I have a Walter Williams who was from Clubmoor Liverpool, he died 14/11/1942, he was in the King's Own Royal Reg't. His name is on the Alamein Memorial, but there is no grave.

My question is " would a death certificate exist for Walter if he died while serving with the Army in N Africa"?

Basically, I'm trying to find out what happened to him. I understand he had a brother Gerry Williams who was also in the Army, but that's about as much information I have.

Any information/help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Alan

Hi there

Not sure if you have this info already

Walter W Williams
Rank: Private
Death Date: 14 Nov 1942
Number: 3863158
Birth Place: Liverpool
Residence: Liverpool
Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
Theatre of War: Middle East
Regiment at Death: King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster)
Branch at Death: Infantry


I have tried 'googling' for an answer to your question but so far drawn a blank. When I get chance I will look again.

Sonja

Hi - I did mean to state in my question, but forgot, if there was no grave, and hence no body, what would be put in the death certificate in terms of cause of death. Assuming of course a death cert did exist?

Alan

The GRO Index has a section called War Deaths Army 1939 - 1948 and you should find him there. My understanding is that the cerifictae contains little information other than name etc as the certifictae was mainly for legal purposes. I believe it will say something like "killed in action" or "died from wounds". How much detail as to place of death I don't know.

The CWGC website Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists him as son of Walter and Eleanor Williams.

To find out what was happening to his regiment at the time of his death you might need to locate and read the War Diary for the time. The CWGC site gives some general information on the fighting at the time.

Ed Officer

Hi Ed,

So the index you are referring to would be in one of those micro fiche black boxes that's kept at the LRO? I tried looking at the GRO site, but I couldn't see a searchable index? Do you know of a link to a searchable database similar to FreeBMD?

Thanks, Alan

Yes I would expect them to have them at Liverpool. They are on Find my past (paying) but not on Ancestry as far as I know. They are not on freebmd or any free website as far as I know.


Ed Officer

Alan I have sent you a Pm with the details from Find my Past which are basically the same as you already have.

Eileen

Hi
There's a marriage in Lancs BMD 1917 W Dby R.O or Registrar Attended (maybe R.C) of Walter Williams to Eleanor Roach.
In 1918 3rd qtr birth of Walter Williams W Dby rego maiden name Roche.
Sorry nothing for Gerry unless it was a nickname?

T.S

Hi Alan

My great uncle was killed at sea when his ship was torpedoed. I have had no luck obtaining his death cert. I contacted the GRO but had no luck. Good luck and please let us know how you get on.

Vic x

Hi Tina,

Eleanor Roach was my Great Auntie - that's my connection with Walter. I've also struggled to find anything on Gerry (or Jerry), I do know that he married a lady called Mary Brynden about 1937 ish - I think that's the surname but not 100% sure.

Hi Vic, there is a story that Walter was captured by the Germans in N Africa. Whilst being transported to a German POW camp the boat he was travelling on was sunk by the British. I'm trying to uncover what actually happened by starting with his death certificate.

Cheers, Alan

Hi Alan
(Alan's mum is my cousin!)

There is a marriage of Gerard Williams to Mary Bryning June quarter 1938 Liverpool
They had children
Eleanor b Mar quarter 1939
John G b Sept quarter 1941

Dorothy

Thanks Dorothy, I'll keep you posted if I make any headway. Looking at the time your post was sent, I thought you would be asleep? Must be very early hours of Saturday morning on the east coast.

Regards, Alan

This might help shed some light.

SS SCILLIN (November 14, 1942)

Italian cargo/passenger ship en route from Tripoli to Sicily with about 815 Commonwealth prisoners-of-war on board, was torpedoed by the British submarine HMS Sahib (Lt. John Bromage) 10 miles north of Cape Milazzo in the Tyrrhenian Sea. The Sahib rescued 27 POW's from the water (26 British and one South African) plus the Scillin's captain and 45 Italian crew members. Only then, when the commander heard the survivors speaking English, did he realize that he had sunk a ship carrying British prisoners-of-war and some Italian soldiers and had drowned 783 men. At a subsequent inquiry into this 'friendly fire' tragedy, Lt. Bromage was cleared of any wrongdoing as the ship was unmarked and at the time he firmly believed that the ship was carrying Italian troops. The Ministry of Defence kept this incident a closely guarded secret for fifty-four years, telling relatives a pack of lies, maintaining that they had died while prisoners-of-war in Italian camps or simply 'lost at sea'. It was not until 1996, after repeated requests for information from the families of the drowned men that the truth came out. The Sahib was attacked by bombs from escort German Ju-88s and depth charges from the Italian corvette Gabbiano in the counter attack immediately after the sinking. Badly damaged, the Sahib was later abandoned and scuttled.

Thanks - it all makes sense. I checked other stories on the internet wrt SS Scillin and they are so similar to Walter's - its so sad.

Hi Alan,
This from the CWGC site:
WILLIAMS, WALTER - Private - 3863158 - 14/11/1942 - 24 - King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) - United Kingdom - Column 55 - ALAMEIN MEMORIAL.

From the above I would surmise he was killed as a result of the 2nd Battle of Alamein. The battle 'officially' lasted from 23 October to 5 November 1942 so it is possible Walter died later from his injuries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bat ... El_Alamein

I have sent you a PM with a GRO reference that will enable you to get a death cert.

Dickiesam

Hi Dickiesam

Thanks for the response, I did some looking round and apparently the guys who died on the SS Scillin were remembered on the El Alamein memorial and the date given was 14 Nov 1942. Also I mentioned in a previous post the family story of him being killed when he was a POW - the boat he was travelling on was sunk by the British. I think given the date and the family story, there is a good chance that he died on the SS Scillin.

I'll see if I can get the death cert.

Regards, Alan