Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi

If anyone can check this for me I'd be really grateful

On the free search I have found

Arthur John Cooper b 1908, age 3, Monmouth
Sarah Ann Cooper, b 1903, age 8, Monmouth

It would help enourmously if I could find out if they are together and which family they are with. I believe their real name is Howell, they are missing from their own family on census.. Cooper is the maiden name of their maternal grandmother.

Thanks

Simone x

If you use the Advanced Fields and enter the reference RD583 in the Census Reference Box and Arthur John Cooper in the "Other Members of the Household" boxes you will get the list of those in the same household as him - mainly Coopers. It doesn't appear that Sarah Ann is in the household.

Thanks Mary

doesn't look like it's them then

Simone x

Hi Simone,
Not too cryptic I hope.....

Births Jun 1908> Cooper, Arthur John - Monmouth - 11a - 26.
Parents Sydney & Elizabeth Emma Cooper [nee Smith].

Marriages Mar 1898:
Cooper, Sydney - Monmouth - 11a - 27.
Smith, Elizabeth Emma - Monmouth - 11a - 27.

No Sarah Ann, just Sarah...
Births Dec 1902> Cooper, Sarah - Monmouth - 11a - 21.
Parents: George & Jessie Cooper {nee Taylor]

Marriages Sep 1888>
COOPER, George - Monmouth - 11a - 33.
TAYLOR, Jessie - Monmouth - 11a - 33.

DS

Hi
Sorry, should have said, but because out of county I didn't want to post details in case it was out of order

I have the birth certs for both Sarah and Arthur. Their surname is Howell(s). They died in 1919 and 1930 respectively.

I have the family
Evan George Howell age 37 Collier b Coleford Glous
Elizabeth Howell age 39
Annie Howell age 11, my grandmother
George age 10 ( born Evan George)
Willie age 5

wondering where Sarah and Arthur are

Thanks for trying for me.. appreciate it.

i don't have the 1911 at the mo
my anc subs are expiring too.. so wondering which to subscribe to... especially now it will be coming on anc... not coming quick enough though

thanks

(MARY- sorry if posted anything i shouldn't )

Simone x

Hi Simone,
Bit of a mystery...!
Sorry for the questions.. Just to clear my mind for the approaching delve and sideways thinking...

1) The un-named baby in the 1901 I presume is George?

2) From when your g.aunt Gladys was born in 1896 to the end of the next decade her parents had another 13 children of whom only 6 survived including your g.mother Annie. Have you been able to identify the 8 children who were born but died?

I am assuming this is Gladys?
Deaths Mar 1903: Howell, Gladys Mary - 7 - Monmouth - 11a - 9.

3) How did you come across the possible surname switch to Cooper for Arthur and Sarah?

4) Their death certs in the name of Howell so where did they die? How do you know they are the right people?

DS

Hi again

Yes that is Gladys

I thought the Coopers may be them because the maiden name of their maternal grandmother was Cooper... so as I didn't have access to the census needed to know if they were with that family.

The baby age 7 days in 1901 is George

I have all the relevant birth and death certs. They died in Forest of Dean

Evan and Elizabeth married 13 April 1898, St John's Coleford.

here are all Elizabeth's children - 12 here, but like you say she had 14 on census. I am waiting for birth of Raymond to arrive, to confirm his date of birth, as if he was born after the 1911, then that means she had a total of 15 children (he certainly isn't listed on the 1911, so prob born after)

Elizabeth Ward b 13 dec 1890 - married Albert Marshall in 1908
Gladys May Ward b 10 Aug 1895 - died 2 Jan 1903
Annie Louisa Howell b 06 Apr 1899 – died 1938
Evan George Howell b 22 Mar 1901 - died 10 April 1901
Evan George Howell b 06 Mar 1902 – d 1983
Sarah Ann Howell b 01 Jul 1903 - died 1919
Rhoda Howell b 16 Feb 1905 - died 28 Feb 1905
Jane Howell b 15 Feb 1906 - died 1906
William Howell b 15 Feb 1906 – died 1975
Arthur John Howell b 17 Jun 1908 - died 28 feb 1930
James Henry Howell b Apr 1910 - died May 1910
Raymond John Howell b Jun quarter 1911 - died 15 April 1913.

It is my quest to find the missing 2 deceased children, as I would like to bring this family all back together after the tradgedy they endured.

Elizabeth died in 1912 of undiagnosed TB. The next afternoon Evan went to work in the colliery and broke his back and died 8 months later...

Sarah Ann, Arthur and William went to the George Muller Orphanage at Bristol.. George was apprenticed to someone and Annie went into service.

Evan had the 6 surviving children, Sarah Ann, William, George, Arthur. Annie and Raymond baptised as preparation for entry into the orphanage, sadly Raymond never made it.

I have the orphanage file on them.

The baptisms and some burials are on The Forest of Dean site

http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/

Thanks for your interest but don't spend loads of time on it. I do know quite a bit, just not where Arthur and Sarah are in 1911, and the 2 missing children . I am inclined to think that they may have been born under the name of Ward, but difficult to pinpoint... none of them were baptised at birth

Thanks again Brian

Simone x

Hi Simone,
As you had mentioned Cooper being a 'family' name I browsed the censuses for others and found the Wards and Watkins among others.

Elizabeth Ward had, as far as I could make out [1871], at least 3 sisters and 2 brothers. Her two 'missing' children could be with any of her surviving siblings. I did searches for Watkins and Ward without success.

That mining community from West Dean was obviously a very close-knit community so they could be with anyone there as well and wrongly written into the 1911 census if the writer simply used ditto marks for the surname.

Such a sad sorrowful story about that family. Not enough to lose 7 or more children but then for the mother to succumb to TB and the father to be crippled and die within months... l understand your desire to find out where the children were.

DS

Hi

Yes they are all mine, the Wards, Wakins, Coopers, Marshalls.

Doesn't help that the Watkins were also Known as Grately
The Marshalls were known as Ward (used their grandmother's maiden name ) but were actually born to John Barnes Marshal was their mother's name.

The search resumes, but thanks for your help

I have my eye on a death for Frances Ward 1892, as my aunt said she remembers visiting someone when she was very small. This person was in Bristol. She thought her name was Frances, but I have establishesd that it was Sarah. So wondering if she has got confused over the names passed on to her by her mum, my grandmother. The death for Frances age 0 could be another baby Can't find the birth reg though and Elizabeth has registered all the others, so why not this one.
May have to bite the bullet and get the death

Thanks again anyway

Simone x