Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

As you are all probably aware with my many posts I am researching Mary Ann GRIMES/CRIMES who was transported to Australia in 1847 with a child (no name or s*x given).

Thanks to Bertie for finding the family on the 1841 census, I thought I had it all wrapped up nicely with the births and deaths of the 2 younger children (leaving young John to travel with mum) and the marriage of the parents. I believe(d) Mary Ann was Flaherty by birth and this would tie in with the forenames of siblings who lived in the same street or area. HOWEVER I have just seen the below on a Rootsweb board and without buying the birth certificate I can't say for sure that the John GRIMES I have found on the BMD is mine - there is only one John GRIMES born 1837 in Manchester. What next?


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Subject: Re: [LAN] William and Mary Ann Grimes marriage circa 1836

I found the following . Wonder if its him and this is your chaps mother ?
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1837 Surname
Forename(s)
Sub-District
Registers At
Mother's Maiden Name Reference
GRIMES John Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library MCNALLY ANC/1/32

Ancoats is only a short walk to the cathedral.

What do you all think of this scenario?

I have John GRIMES baptised in Collegiate church (Cathedral), Manchester on 6th August 1837 from the IGI along with his two sisters Eliza and Elizabeth (1838 and 1840) the last 2 showing up on the general BDM indexes.

I have just been to the free BDM site and can find the last two children with the mother GRIMES.

There are 2 more entries for GRIMES with the mother being McNALLY (John 1837 and Sarah 1841).

Civil registration didn't commence until 1st July 1837. What about if his parents didn't register him not knowing or understanding the new laws as they couldn't write (x on their marriage cert) and Mary Ann was not able to read either according to her transportation record.

I hate to fit square pegs into round holes and I'm just thinking out loud here but it makes sense to me and everything else fits in except Mary Ann being a widow from Liverpool even though she is shown on the 1841 census as born in Ireland and I can find no trace of Mr GRIMES dying before she was shipped out.

I know now why they are called "naughty girls" so I don't know why I expect perfect book keeping and honesty from them. I was under the impression (I don't know why!!! ) that they became model citizens after serving their time, glad of the chance to make a fresh start in a new country but that's not what I am finding out at all.

Sorry for the ramble but it's been driving me nuts for days!!!

Does this make sense? I'd be glad of some feedback before I pass all the information onto the project co-ordinator.

(From FMP - Births
•Pre-1875 - an estimated 6 to 10% of births NOT registered)

I looked at the Sarah Grimes/ McNally and the registration was March Qtr 1841.
The 1841 census was held June 6th, on the 1841 census, a child Betty, 8 months old, approx birth month, November. The same woman couldn't have 2 children in that time scale, of course providing the correct registration procedure was carried out.

Thank you Bert, I did have another thought that maybe the father was married to Ms McNally first, then she died and he married Mary Ann before Eliza was born, therefore making her John's stepmother rather than birth mother but as you say she can't have been as she has a child in 1841.

So what do you think of my summary? I know I can't be 100% sure as it's not my family I have just picked it up at random from 1847 as it where.

No. 4313. MARY ANN GRIMES. Prison No. 463. Tried at The Sessions 25 October 1847. 7 years transportation. 28 years old, a widow with one child on board from Liverpool. "My husband William Grimes died 2 years ago. I have a brother Robert, sister Eliza in Manchester

The Robert Flaherty that's close on the 1841 census with William Grimes/Mary Ann.

Is Roberts occupation, greengrocer? can't make it out.

William Grimes is recorded as Labourer when marrying Mary Ann Flaherty, afterwards, census and baptisms, a greengrocer. Wondering if Robert gave him or got him a job. Keep it in the family

Bertieone wrote:The Robert Flaherty that's close on the 1841 census with William Grimes/Mary Ann.

Is Roberts occupation, greengrocer? can't make it out.

William Grimes is recorded as Labourer when marrying Mary Ann Flaherty, afterwards, census and baptisms, a greengrocer. Wondering if Robert gave him or got him a job. Keep it in the family

Yes I read it as greengrocer too, and Mary Ann says she is a grocer on the transportation records. Living in the same street too, so I would surmise that is her brother she mentions.

A 15 minute walk away is her sister Eliza and family and the father is a butcher, of course I cannot be 100% certain this is her family but it would fit in nicely with the food industry

Bertie you really need to get into doing this convict thing, I can promise you it's an amazing journey and you would be so great at it, the team needs you.

BarbaraW wrote:Bertie you really need to get into doing this convict thing.

Thanks Barbara but I'll stay on the right side of the law.