Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Yesterday at Liverpool Archives I asked the manager has anyone done any research into soldiers Shot at dawn from Liverpool. I also inquired about how many soldiers from Liverpool were SAD. He recalled a book wrote by Judge Babington on the subject and I went looking for this book. The Manager asked me to come back to him and tell him if the names of these soldiers were listed. I found the book and it does not mention the full name and Rank of the Soldier concerned in respect of the families of the Soldiers Killed (this book was written in 1983) long before these men were pardoned. I read this book today while my daughter was at hospital.

Now I have been indexing for the last 3 years Official Casualty lists published in the local press, issued from the front as incidents happened. Now, most of the cases of the men who were Killed at dawn, were most probably suffering from Shock-Shell. Now what I can't understand is the War Office or the General Court Martial hearings that convened to try these soldiers did not consider Shock-Shell a medical condition, yet in Official Casualty lists issued and published in the Times and the local press it states Wounded-Shock-Shell. I have indexed the wounded lists from 1st January 1916-6th May 1918 and I have 743 entries for Soldiers suffering from Shock-Shell.

I know this is a sensitive subject but the stories of these soldiers who were killed has been hidden for so many years and I personally think its about time that we, who spend so many hours of our time in order for their stories be told should have a little discussion about it. And I have a question:-

If the Powers that be did not recognise Shock-Shell as a condition (Post Traumatic Distress) why were the War Office quite clearly issuing Casualty lists stating Wounded-Shock-Shell. I have lists from 1915 reporting soldiers Wounded-Concussion-Shell and also Shock-Shell.

Opinions welcome.

Katie.

I am no expert on this subject (just read many books).

But, one thing I know is that there where various effects on soldiers in WW1.

Those suffering from 'Wounded-Concussion-Shell' could mostly be expected to suffer various internal organ injuries (from the Concussive effects of Shell Expolsions), relatively easy to diagnose.

Were as 'Shock-Shell' could present its effects differently on each subject, some suffers were diagnosed (correctly) almost right away, were as others could 'slip through' either by not wanting to report sick or their comrades not realising that they were.

& then there is the other (now reasonably well documented) cases of Bad/Non-existing understanding of 'Shell-Shock' by those in Charge.

An interesting read....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... k_01.shtml

Thought I'd move over here from the fb posting... more room to type!

As I was saying on fb (and I think this agrees with what Pegasus has posted) early cases on the wounded lists as 'shell shock' would have been men who were literally injured by the shock-wave of a shell. Although the neurological effects of PTSD were being noticed, men who presented with what we now think of as shell-shock (PTSD) should have been listed as sick rather than wounded as it was at first considered to be a natural weakness of their constitution which would sort itself out when removed from the noise of the trenches. As the war went on and the neurological problem of shell-shock (PTSD) became more apparent the MOD were keen to make it known that it was not an easy way out of the trenches.

There actually was a (usually) fairly sensible practise as regards men with PTSD shell-shock, they were moved away from the front lines for a week or two to recover. Most of them recovered enough to be useful for a while longer.

I was recently looking through two books on the Internet Archive, "Hysterical disorders of Warfare. 1920" and "Shellshock and other Neuropsychiatric Problems. 1919" they have many case studies which describe what happened to individual soldiers, what their symptoms and treatment were. The 'treatments' some of those poor men were put through were terrible.

Interestingly, quite a few of the commonest symptoms of shell shock are also symptoms of neuro-syphilis which become worse under stress. I've seen a few medical reports on pension files which state the men had neurological symptoms which sound like PTSD but the doctor attributes to syphilis. I wonder which one had less stigma?

Of course, with regards to the men S.A.D. for cowardice who had PTSD, each of their deaths was a personal tragedy (not to mention their families and the men in the firing squads) However, they were not executed because of their personal actions but because the MOD needed to maintain discipline in wartime and, rightly or wrongly, that was how they did it then. For every man that was S.A.D. there were many more in the same situation who were pardoned, the ones who died were the ones who were overcome by their symptoms of PTSD at the wrong time and the wrong place.

I'm off to bed now, didn't mean to type so much! Great post Katie


Amanda

Hi, I was at the National Arboretum a couple of weeks a go, and I found the shot at dawn memorial quite moving, and would recommend it to anyone for a day trip,

Hi Jimmy, welcome to the forum and thank you for posting these very moving photographs.

Thank you for posting these photographs. I will have to plan a trip down there to get the names of the soldiers from Liverpool and area.

I got interested in these soldiers while checking for a Medal card for Private James McFarlane whose service record has not survived. He appears in my database twice as being wounded-Shock-Shell during the Battle of the Somme and again during the 3rd Battle of Ypres:-

2nd-Nov-1916
King's Liverpool Regt.
Private
James
2070
McFarlane
Liverpool
Wounded-Shock-Shell


3rd-Sept-1917
King's Liverpool Regiment
Private
James
265427
McFarlane
Liverpool
Wounded

Lest we Forget

King's Liverpool Regiment
McFarlane
265427
James
Private
Liverpool
22nd May 1918
Killed
Son of William and Margaret McFarlane, of 14, Gerard Street, Byrom Street, Liverpool.
Shot at dawn CWGC