King's Regiment 4th batallion - troop train explosion

[Gwebb1]

Hi.
Anyone know anything about this incident in April 1918? 29 soldiers were killed when a shell fell on a train and the soldiers (one of whom was my grandfather) were buried in a mass grave at Choques Cemetery. What references I have found seem to suggest there is nothing in the War Diaries about the incident and I do not seem to be able to find any reports in the Liverpool papers either.

As always, any help would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Glen

[MaryA]

Have you checked the newspapers at the Record Office or just those available online? and do you have the exact date of the incident, perhaps from a death certificate?

[Gwebb1]

Hi Mary.
The date of Robert Maddox's death (the soldier I am interested in) was 11th April 1918.
I'm afraid I have not been able to get to Liverpool for quite a while so I have just checked the newspapers that I can access on-line. What information I have found has come from what people have written on a genesreunited blog, Great War blog (sorry - can't remember the name of the site) and the Cemetery records.

Regards,
Glen

[dickiesam]

See: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... opic=63091

And this post by Major-General...
I would go to the National Archives site where, for £3.50 you can download 16 pages of the 4th King's war diary covering March/ April 1918. The reference is WO95/ 2427. This must contain a reference to the train incident and probably includes a list of casualties.

[Katie]

He appears in a Casualty list published 3rd-june 1918


King's Liverpool Regiment
Maddox
56672
Robert
Private
Liverpool
11th April 1918
Killed
Husband of Jane Maddox, of 28, Sedley Street, Liverpool. Son of Isabella and the late Thomas Maddox, of 21, Fonthill Road, Kirkdale, Liverpool.
3rd-June-1918
Casualty list No :5582
7-8/5/1918-EE

There are two notices for this soldier in the Evening Express date 7th & 8th May 1918.

[daggers]

The description of this cemetery in the website of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has this:
"The big collective grave in VI A contains the remains of 29 soldiers of the 4th King's Liverpool Regiment killed in a troop train in April 1918."
This does not add to what has been posted here, but might save anyone from looking there.

The various posts on the Great War Forum show that there is nothing in the war diary or regimental history.

Note: the cemetery is CHOCques Military Cemetery, not Choques.
D

[Katie]

Some of these Soldiers have 9th Bn numbers yet the are recorded as 4th Bn on CWGC

King's Liverpool Regiment
Watling
332854
Andrew
Private
Liverpool
11th April 1918
Killed
Son of Andrew and Sarah Watling, of Kirkdale; husband of Louisa Watling, of 6, Grist St., Kirkdale, Liverpool.
3rd-June-1918
5582
15/5/1918-EE

[Gwebb1]

Many thanks for your help so far everyone.

I am following up the Evening Express mentions and I must apologise for my misspellings of 'Chocques' and 'battalion' - my only excuse is that I was multi-tasking when I sent the messages. And, of course, I possess a keyboard that insists on printing the wrong letters!!

I haven't followed-up war records before. I have Robert's medal record sheet (he received the Victory and British medals), his death certificate and and the CWGC Certificate and Casualty Details although I did not realise these were printed in June.

Is there a way I can find out when he enlisted and where his battalion was sent? I assume the War Diaries would give me where the battalion went but would I be correct in assuming Robert would have gone to all the places mentioned after his enlistment or would only part of a battalion have gone? Probably a daft question but, as I say, I am a novice at the war record business.

Thanks for your help. I'm away now for a few days so apologies if you reply and I don't get back to you until the end of the week.

Glen

[daggers]

I have a list of the 29 casualties from the 4th Battalion who lie in Chocques Military Cemetery. Others fell on the same date but are buried or commemorated elsewhere - presumably in the front line and not in the fated train.
Not all have a home contact/next of kin listed, but of those that do, about half were from Liverpool, others from Lancashire and as far as Herefordshire and Cambridgeshire.
Not all have their age recorded, but two were 19 years old, one 20, one 21, one 29, three 30, others 32, 34, 36, 40, 41. Two had earlier been awarded the Military Medal, one of them the 21-year-old, the other 30.

In 1914 the 4th Battalion was an extra reserve unit based at Seaforth and would have filled up with reservists when war broke out. They moved to France as a battalion in March 1915 and from Feb 1916 to the end of the war were in 98th Brigade, part of 33rd Division. They were involved several major actions on the Somme in 1916 and in the Allied Offensive in 1917, including the Battle of Arras (April/May), Second Battle of the Scarpe (April), and on the Hindenburg Line (May/June). Later in 1917 they were in the Battles of Menin Road and Polygon Wood.
In 1918 they were still in Flanders, at the Battle of the Lys and were probably being moved in readiness for the Battle of Hazebrouck (12-15 April).

As already stated the battalion war diary and regimental history do not mention the incident but it is possible that it was mentioned in the 98th Brigade or 33rd Divisional diary. Some of these war diaries have been put online but most are still available to see at the National Archives, Kew.

Daggers

Daggers

[Gwebb1]

Hi, Daggers - thanks for the information.

My grandfather was Robert Maddox, a private, Army No. 56672.
His death certificate shows he was 29 when he died so that fits in with your records. I'll certainly follow-up the leads you mention.

As I have already mentioned, I am new to researching military records so I wonder if you can tell me whether everyone in a battalion would have signed-up at the same time and gone to war at the same time. Also, is it possible to find out just when my grandfather enlisted and went to France?
My mother was born in 1915 and I'm beginning to wonder whether Robert would ever have actually seen his daughter.

Many thanks.
Glen

[MaryA]

Don 't know if this helps at all, sorry I don't see any Service Records for him.

and he is listed on the database Soldiers who died in the Great War.
Name: Robert Maddox
Birth Place: Liverpool
Residence: Liverpool
Death Date: 11 Apr 1918
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: Liverpool
Rank: Private
Regiment: King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion: 4th Battalion
Number: 56672
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

[daggers]

Not much to add this time. I have looked at the Brigade war diary - this is the higher formation to which 4th Battalion, KLR, belonged. There is no reference to the incident.

Like Mary I have not found Pte Maddox's service records, which must have been among those lost in the WW2 blitz.

This battalion was part of the army's reserves in August 1914, and so will at first have filled up with men who had been regular soldiers who had served their time but whose service terms made them liable to recall to the colours. As the war progressed and the battalion became a fighting unit they will have received men from all sorts of sources as reinforcements at different times. I have looked at the list of the men who died on this date and out of the first 20, nearly one half were from Manchester area or had previously been with a battalion of the Manchester Regiment.

I have looked for service records for those on the 'Chocques' list with numbers closest to Maddox's, but could not find surviving records for them, either. By 1918 there will have been a great deal of mixing up of men with different lengths of service and former units, so I am afraid there is little more we can offer.

As Robert Maddox was from Liverpool there might be a record of his enlistment in a local paper, as this seemed to happen early in the war, but I fear the odds are against it, and it would be a case of needle and haystack to find any report.

D

[daggers]

I am advised by someone who is not a Forum member that the likely date of enlistment for Robert Maddox is November 1916.
Daggers

[Gwebb1]

Thanks again, everyone.
A few more questions following on from what you have told me so far:

Daggers: the possible Nov 1916 enlistment date has jogged a few memories on my part. I have this faint recollection of being told my grandfather had died when my mother was 2 and I always had the feeling he had seen his daughter for some reason. This enlistment date would have meant she was 15 months old when he left for France. Do you know how your source has come up with this date and whether I could follow it up further?

Katie: how do I access the Casualty Lists? I have the casualty details from CWGC and the certificate (thanks, Mary, but I was ahead of you on this one - not often I can say that!) but these give the address of Robert's wife as Butterfield Street but the casualty list you refer to gives a Sedley Street address. My mother was born at the Sedley Street address and my grandmother was married from Butterfield Street. I know she went back to live with her widowed father but any ideas why these 2 records would have different addresses for her?

Kind regard.

Glen

[Katie]

I will have got that address from a Obituary or something i have come across with that address recorded. I will have a look. The information on CWGC will not have been inserted till 1926. I am trying to find information that was available at the time of his death.

Leave it with me and I'll see were I got that address from.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Katie. That makes sense - by 1926 my grandmother had certainly moved back in with her father.
I'd be interested in tracking down the obituary or whatever you saw.

Glen

[daggers]

Gwebb
Sorry for delayed reply but I have been away.
My contact has done a lot of work on some regiments and numbering/dates etc and I think he will have researched Ancestry for soldiers with numbers near to this one and found some had service records which survived the blitz. This will have given him an idea about enlistment dates. I think it unlikely that anything more can be deduced.

Daggers

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Daggers, I have found out more than I had expected to. My next step will be to get over to Liverpool in the not too distant future and take a look at the Evening Express entries.

Just a couple more questions, Daggers. Do you know how many soldiers were in the 4th battalion at the time my grandfather was in it and would the whole battalion have seen action together? For example, when I read that the 4th battalion saw action on the Hindenburg Line in 1917, could I assume that, unless he was on leave, that would have been where my grandfather was at that time?

I did say I was a novice at this military history!

Regards.
G.

[MaryA]

I did say I was a novice at this military history!

Many of us are but it's our interest in our heroes that keeps their memories alive. I too look forward to seeing if anybody has an answer to your question.

[Gwebb1]

Just wanted to say a personal 'thank you' to Katie.
I followed up the notices for Robert Maddox in the 'Evening News' and found a lovely tribute to him from my grandmother and another from his mother, sisters and uncle. It really put another piece in the puzzle and brought home to me again the impact the War had on ordinary families.

The notice also sorted out the address issue - my grandmother was still living in Sedley Street when Robert died and must have returned to her father's house after she had heard the news of Robert's death.

Just one point, Katie: how on earth did you know there were notices in those editions of the paper?

Regards,
Glen