Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'm searching for details for my grandmother's second husband. James Robert Barlow, supposedly born 14.10.1896, Liverpool, Lancashire. Parents Richard Lloyd Barlow and Sarah Smith. On their Aust. Marriage Cert. father listed as Railway employee. James Barlow enlisted in British Army on 12.7.1915 and discharged Feb. 1919 in Liverpool. Army records destroyed by fire during the London bombings according to UK Ministry of Defence. Identified a James Robert Barlow in 1901 English Census, but not one that linked to the parents above. Richard Lloyd & Sarah Barlow (nee Smith) in the 1901 UK Census but did not list a James Robert Barlow as one of the children. Birth records indicated nothing conclusive, possibly narrowed down to one of 5 James Barlow's (there was no James Robert Barlow). Enlisted in Aust. Army during 2nd WW. DOB may be wrong he said he added to his age to get into 1st WW. No idea of how and when he arrived in Australia. Any suggestions would be appreciated, his daughter would like to start this line of her family tree.

I have a few more questions.

I don't see an entry for James Robert Barlow in Liverpool in 1901, perhaps you'd give us the references, also for the entry for Richard Lloyd Barlow and Sarah.

You have exact dates - Birth of James 14.10.1896 - there is just the one entry in the Liverpool area matching this
James Barlow Q4 1896 West Derby 8b 348
Have you checked out this birth? If you did order the birth certificate you could put checking criteria on your request and you wouldn't be charged for the certificate if the entry was incorrect.

If you don't have his birth certificate, how do you know for certain what his mother's name was? Can you tell us the date and location of the marriage of his parents Richard Lloyd Barlow and Sarah Smith.

As you have such definite dates for his military career, do you have his number? there should be pension records for him on Ancestry, have you checked these out? There may also be medal card details or enlistment papers.

If his daughter was born in Australia - and also his marriage from what you say? then his date of travel will be before then, maybe you can narrow down the time scale as being after his military service and before his marriage? If you can it might be possible to find him on an outgoing ship.

The James Barlow born 1896 Mary refers to is I think living in Kirkdale in 1901 and has different parents.

You think he may have falsified his birth date to join up. If he joined up in 1915 he would need to have been under the age of 18 to alter his birth date this perhaps gives a date of 1897/98ish. However that still doesn't help as there don't seem to be any James Robert Barlows.

I have tried looking for a marriage of a Richard Lloyd Barlow to a Sarah Smith but so far with no success I need to enlarge the area of search I think.

Could I ask how you know he was born in Liverpool? Also do the family have his medals as this will give a number and will posssbly help to get onto the Regiment. As there is so much detail about his war service maybe his regiment is already known.

Ed Officer

Hi Ladies
Yes we need the details from the Australian marriage and his daughter's birth. It has to give clues as to when he went to Oz.
He enlisted again in WW2.

Tina

this is the only marriage I could find for a Richard Barlow to a Sarah

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Mar 1890
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Barlow Richard Sheffield 9c 455
Haigh William Henry Sheffield 9c 455
MILLER Sarah Sheffield 9c 455
SMITH Alice Ann Sheffield 9c 455

Susan, I tried to eliminate one of the couples via the census but unfortunately in Yorkshire I can find both a William Haigh AND a Richard Barlow with an Alice A Can't find a Richard Barlow with a Sarah but plenty of William Haighs.

It would appear Barlow is predominantly a Lancashire name, but that doesn't mean your marriage find is incorrect.

EO I concur with your find for young xxxx James in the census, my thoughts are that if there is an exact date known in the family, even if the year is incorrect, the probability is that the day and month are correct.

I think we need a little more information from Sandra.

Edited I boobed on the name!

I have to agree...I've found several richards in the 1901 census but without some more info we are working blind.

Thank you for your replies. Herewith more information. Our only source of information is the Aust. Marriage Certificate for JRB and my grandmother. They were married on 14.12.1940 in Woollahra, NSW. Certificate states he was from Liverpool, England, 44 years of age (which makes DOB 1896). Father: Richard Lloyd Barlow (Railway Employee), Mother: Sarah Smith (deceased). Their daughter was born in 1943.
Two wrong Certificates obtained - James born 15.10.1900, Kirkdale and another born 1.12.1898, St. Martin, Liverpool.
War Service: Enlisted in British Army on 12.7.1915, discharged Feb. 1919 in Liverpool. Think he saw service in France. Service No.356493/10KLP BEF). Have photo of him in full dress kilt with furry hat, high boots. Do not have any medals. Informed by UK Ministry of Defence that his army records were destroyed by fire during the London bombings.
Aust. War Service: No.N72434 Enl. 29.5.1940, Discharged 2.03.1945.
Estimate he arrived in Aust. somewhere between 1919 and prior to 1940. For what it's worth he had red hair and another relative thinks perhaps he had Scottish blood. No noticeable accent.

Hi folks
Just to say no luck in findmyp# immigration even with birth year.
I didn't put Aust in, as sometimes we have found people went to another country first e.g N.Z
He could have been a crew member?

1911 Directory nothing for his Dad.

1911 Census couple of possibles for James in W Dby.

I didn't look for his Dad going to Oz in fmp (how did James know his Dad was alive & a railway worker at the time of his marriage )

Tina

I reckon we need some of our military experts on this one! I put the number into the Medal Rolls Index and got 6 names but no James Robert Barlow.

The kilt would suggest some connection to something Scottish maybe?

Ed Officer

Difficult, as we've found no entries for the parents marriage in England/Wales I wondered about Scotland - thinking of the kilt - but although I can't access the database there are no matches found in the index for a marriage between those names on Scotlands People, nor a birth for Richard Lloyd Barlow. Also only one entry for a James Robert Barlow but over half a century too late for the one we are searching for.

"356493/10KLP BEF"

This number falls within the number block given to the 10th (Scottish) Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment. Looking up the number, gives a ROBERT TUTTLE, not a Barlow in sight!

Robert is entitled to the BWM & Vic pair, indicating no service abroad before 1916.

Can you post a copy of the photo you have?

Mark

I wonder if we may be getting somewhere in a strange way

Birth of a Robert Tuttle Q4 1896 Liverpool 8b 61

Does this sound familiar?

Extracted entry from the IGI
Birth: 14 October, 1896
Christening: 26 October, 1896 St Peter's, Liverpool

Robert TOOTLE
Parents Richard Lloyd Tootle and Sarah Tootle

Well we've got where he gets the name Barlow from

Another extracted entry from the IGI
Richard Lloyd Tuttle married Sarah Barlow on 27 February, 1889 St Matthew, Liverpool
Richard's father John Henry Albert Tuttle
Sarah's father Robert Barlow

Not finding them at present in the censuses - perhaps you could ask for a look up for the marriage. Post another message headed up to this effect and hopefully we will get a result in their addresses and ages.

Well done Mary!

Well done to you Mark, without your lead we would still be chasing our tails.

I wonder how come the numbers are known but with the wrong name? That seems strange to me.

Mary,

I wonder if the family have mixed the names up? Stranger things have happened!

Mark

Could be or it could be that he wanted a new identity, stranger things have happened!

Hi folks,
Some more unravelling of the mystery! In 1891 the family are in Birkenhead:

BARLOW, Robert - Head - Married - 49 - 1842 - General Labourer - Heserell, Cheshire. (Bad transcription. Page shows Heswall)
BARLOW, Martha - Wife - Married - 47 - 1844 - Torden, Montgomeryshire.
TUTTLE, Richard - Son In Law - Married - 24 - 1867 - Joiners Labourer - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, Sarah - Dtr - Married - 23 - 1868 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
JONES, Mary - Boarder - Single - 18 - 1873 - Working In Tobacco Works - Liverpool, Lancashire.
BARLOW, Robert - Son - Single - 16 - 1875 - Office Boy - Liverpool, Lancashire.
JONES, Alfred - Boarder - 13 - 1878 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire.
BARLOW, Charles - Son - 12 - 1879 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire.
JONES, James - Boarder - 10 - 1881 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire.
BARLOW, John James - Son - 7 - 1884 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, Richard - Grandson - 1 - 1890 - Liverpool, Lancashire.

RG number: RG12 Piece: 2878 Folio: 115 Page: 28
Address: 39 Thomas Street, Birkenhead, Cheshire.

And in 1901 the plot thickens again. Sarah has died.

TUTTLE, Richard L - Head - Widower - 35 - 1866 - General Labourer - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, John R - Son - Single - 11 - 1890 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, Albert H - Son - 9 - 1892 - Birkenhead, Cheshire.
TUTTLE, Sarah - Dtr - 8 - 1893 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, Elizabeth E - Dtr - 6 - 1895 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
TUTTLE, Robert Son - 4 - 1897 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
BARLOW, Ellen - Sister-In-Law - Single - 27 - 1874 - Servant Domestic - Liverpool, Lancashire.

RG number: RG13 Piece: 3413 Folio: 85 Page: 77
Address: 22 Marlborough Street, Liverpool.

Deaths Mar 1898: Tuttle, Sarah - 30 - Liverpool - 8b - 32.

Need to check out Richard's father-in-law, Robert Barlow? By the 1901 census he appears to have died if I found the right Martha, his wife.

BARLOW, Martha - Head - Widow - 56 - 1845 - Living On Own Means - Montgomeryshire, Wales.
JONES, Alfred - Son - Single - 24 - 1877 - Letter Carrier In G P O - Liverpool, Lancashire.
JONES, Jane - Dtr - Single - 20 - 1881 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
WILKINS, Martha - Grand Daughter - Single - 6 - 1895 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
GRIFFITH, Edward - Boarder - Single - 21 - 1880 - Plate Layer On Railway Line - Heswall, Cheshire.

RG number: RG13 Piece: 3380 Folio: 38 Page: 3
Address: Banks Road, Heswall Cum Oldfield, Heswall, Cheshire.

Deaths Sep 1900: Barlow, Robert - 60 - Wirral - 8a - 265.

Question! Where did the 2 Jones children come from?
OK, that's all for now. Lunch call!

Dickiesam