Childwall look-up if possible

[simone]

Hi Barbara

16/8/1866
Thomas Cave, 23, bachelor, Wheelwright, Residence: Newton in Makerfield, Father: Thomas Cave, Farmer
Elizabeth Ashton, 20, spinster, Residence: Wavertree, Father; Ralph Ashton, Joiner
signed by both
Witnesses: Thomas Houghton and Isabella Ashton, both sign

If you would like the copy, send me your email address in a PM.

Just as an aside, the Registers for Childwall will be taken from Huyton Library in a couple of weeks for a while, as they are being copied for both Liverpool Records Office and Lancs OPC

Simone x

[Hilary]

The one I found has a father William Cave and mother Ellen.

Anyhow I don't think it's him because

On http://www.familysearch.org

Emmanuel Newton in Makerfield
2June 1897
Thomas Cave aged 53 a widower father Thomas Cave married
Annie Shaw 45 single father John Shaw

So you want a Thomas Cave son of Thomas Cave born about 1843/4

[Hilary]

The Thomas son of William and Ellen I found must be the birth registration June Quarter 1843 Prescot so I reckon yours must be the December Quarter Prescot Registration. Woolton was in the Prescot Reg district at that time.

Your Thomas is probably the one who's servant to James Cave the wheelwright in 1861.

[simone]

Hi Barbara


Witnesses: Thomas Houghton and Isabella Ashton, both sign

Simone x

1851 census
HO107; Piece: 2194; Folio: 198; Page: 32
Kendrick's Moss, The Village, Rainhill
Henry Houghton 35 Railway porter, b Cronton
Ellen Houghton 33 b Little Woolton
Sarah Houghton 13 b Little Woolton
Thomas Houghton 11 b Cronton
Mary Houghton 2 b Rainhill
Thomas Cave 47 b Little Woolton scholar, visitor --age says 47 but looks like 7 to me

Simone x

[Tex T]

From familysearch.org,

groom's name Thomas Cave
groom's birth date1844
groom's age 53
bride's name Annie Shaw
bride's birth date 1852
bride's age 45
marriage date 2 Jun 1897
marriage place Emmanuel Church, Newton-In-Mackerfield, Lancashire
groom's father's name Thomas Cave
bride's father's name John Shaw
groom's marital status Widowed
bride's marital status Single

From genuki.org.uk,

NEWTON-IN-MACKERFIELD, a town, a parish, and a sub-district, in Warrington district, Lancashire.

[simone]

Hi Barbara


Witnesses: Thomas Houghton and Isabella Ashton, both sign

Simone x

1851 census
HO107; Piece: 2194; Folio: 198; Page: 32
Kendrick's Moss, The Village, Rainhill
Henry Houghton 35 Railway porter, b Cronton
Ellen Houghton 33 b Little Woolton
Sarah Houghton 13 b Little Woolton
Thomas Houghton 11 b Cronton
Mary Houghton 2 b Rainhill
Thomas Cave 47 b Little Woolton scholar, visitor --age says 47 but looks like 7 to me
wink:

Simone x

Lancs opc

Marriage: 1 Oct 1837 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Henry Houghton - Full Labourer Bachelor of Argyle Street
Ellen Cave - (X), Full Spinster of St. Andrew Street
Groom's Father: James Houghton, Sawyer
Bride's Father: Thomas Cave, Labourer
Witness: Thomas Houghton, (X); Ellen Houghton, (X)
Married by Banns by: John Cheetham A. M. Curate

[simone]

1841
HO107; Piece: 516; Book: 2;Folio: 4; Page: 3
Towns End, Cronton
Henry Haughton 25 ag lab
Ellen Haughton 20
Sarah Haughton 3
Thomas Haughton 1

[simone]

1861
RG 9; Piece: 2744; Folio: 33; Page: 19
11 Houghton St, Kendrick's Cross, Rainhill
Henry Houghton 45b Cronton, gardener
Ellen Houghton 43b Tarbock
Sarah Houghton 23 b Little Woolton
Mary Houghton 12 b Rainhill
Emma Houghton 8 b Rainhill
Henry Houghton 5 b Rainhill
Agnes Houghton 2 b Rainhill

[simone]

Been trying to find Thomas Cave the farmer..

closest I'm getting is this one

1851 at Grange Farm, Grange Lane, Little Woolton, but he is listed as unmarried..

HO107; Piece: 2193; Folio: 95; Page: 6
Joseph Turton 55 widr b Little Woolton Farmer of 40 acres
James Turton 77 widr b Halewood
Mary Higginson 54b Wharton
Margt Battersby 14 b Wharton
Thomas Cave 27 Farm servant b Little Woolton
George W Campbell 25 b Scotland
Richd Bell 27 b Scotland

haven't pinned him down in 1841 yet

[Barbara B]

This is brilliant! Thank you so much Simone. The witness to the wedding, Isabella Ashton is my great great grandmother.
Thank you Hilary and Tex T for all your input. I've now got much more to go on. I'm going to spend a fair bit of time this afternoon tracking back and trying to put it all together (well it's been snowing here so I'm stuck in!)
Thanks once again to all who took the time and trouble to help.
Barbara

[simone]

Hi Barbara...snowed in here too

I wonder if this is Ellen Cave who married Henry Houghton


Ellen Caive
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 21 Mar 1818
Christening Date: 19 Apr 1818
Christening Place: Childwall, Lancashire, England
Age at Christening: 0
Father's Name: Thomas Caive
Mother's Name: Mary

[Barbara B]

She's a possibility.
I found a Thomas Cave in the 1871 as a farm labourer in Huyton with Roby born 1824 in Little Woolton. He's a widower and has a number of young children. He's also on the 1881 in Liverpool with one of the children, Ellen. I can't find a marriage or any sign of son Thomas. The age and occupation fit but it's just guesswork really. What do you think?
Barbara

[simone]

I saw him too barbara, on earlier census too. Sorry not at computer at the moment, on my phone so don't have the info handy. Is he the one who married Mary george in 1856? This led me to think your thomas may be thomas george, 2 births fit in 1844, but then found 2 that fit on 1851 census , so if right can't be your Thomas if he is with Houghtons in 1851.

Will have another look later

[simone]

Was thinking, he can't be Ellen Cave's son because she married before he was born, so maybe she is an aunt. Her father is Thomas too, so could he be naming a grandfather as his father on his marriage

[Barbara B]

I don't think the Mary George marriage can be right unless it's a second marriage - 'my' Thomas Cave was born 1844 so he would have been twelve by the time of the marriage in 1856.Maybe it was a second marriage and that's why he was with the Houghtons in 1851 - because his mother had died. Still just guesswork though!

[simone]

No, that's what I mean Barbara, it doesn't fit because your Thomas is with the Houghton's in 1851 and if he had been born as Thomas George, the ones that fit from the birth indexes I have managed to account for in 1851.

I think we have been looking at the same Thomas born 1824 a widower in 1871?, I posted his 1851 census entry earlier, here it is again, but I reckon he may be the one who married Mary George in 1856

1851 at Grange Farm, Grange Lane, Little Woolton, but he is listed as unmarried..

HO107; Piece: 2193; Folio: 95; Page: 6
Joseph Turton 55 widr b Little Woolton Farmer of 40 acres
James Turton 77 widr b Halewood
Mary Higginson 54b Wharton
Margt Battersby 14 b Wharton
Thomas Cave 27 Farm servant b Little Woolton
George W Campbell 25 b Scotland
Richd Bell 27 b Scotland

1861
RG 9; Piece: 2741; Folio: 46; Page: 9
Home Smithies, Liverpool Road, Huyton
Thomas Cave 37 b Gateacre Farm Labourer
Mary Cave 30b Lightwood Green
Mary Cave 2 b Huyton
Emily Cave 5 Months b Huyton
Mary Bathel 57 Aunt, b Flintshire
Henry Winch 19 Lodger b Staffordshire

1871
RG10; Piece: 3856; Folio: 47; Page: 7
Woolfall Hall
Thomas Cave 47 Farm Servant, b Little Woolton
Mary Cave 12 b Huyton
Emily Cave 10
Ellen Cave 8
Elizabeth Cave 5


so don't reckon he's you Thomas' dad..

[simone]

Not sure if the Thomas Cave/Mary George marriage is right one now for this family... it is on Ancestry and Mary is 12 years younger that Thomas.. he was born 1823, she was born 1835..
but then I can't see another Thomas Cave/Mary marriage to fit timewise

[simone]

The Thomas son of William and Ellen I found must be the birth registration June Quarter 1843 Prescot so I reckon yours must be the December Quarter Prescot Registration. Woolton was in the Prescot Reg district at that time.

Your Thomas is probably the one who's servant to James Cave the wheelwright in 1861.

You could ask for birth certificate, but specifying father's name Thomas

[Barbara B]

Sorry not to have got back sooner - a bit distracted by the birth of second granddaughter Amelia Rose this morning - another little twig!
I'm inclined to go the birth certificate route to settle the question otherwise I'll have invented a whole imaginary life for Thomas. Snow all gone here but pouring rain all day and more snow forecast for next week.

[simone]

Ahh congratulations Barbara

Yes if it were me I'd have a go at the birth cert, at least you know dads name now . As much as Thomas 1823 looks good, he doesn't look to have had you Thomas. Let us know what you find out.


Simone xx