John Martin (1850- ?)

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iandj
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John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by iandj »

I wonder if any of you can help me solve the mystery of my great-grandfather’s apparent disappearance from official records sometime between 1891 and 1919.

JOHN MARTIN is born in Dumfries on 6 May 1850 to David Martin, a master tailor, and Mary Carson Smart of Dumfries. He marries my great-grandmother, Jane Lorraine, at Dumfries in November 1870 and by 1880, they have had four children – Walter, Mary, David (my grandfather) and Agnes. The 1881 census shows that on census night John is staying with his mother-in-law, Mary Lorraine (née Muir), in Kirkdale, Liverpool, while his wife, Jane, and children remain in Dumfries. Mary Lorraine has moved to Liverpool after the death of my 2 x great-grandfather in 1862 and on 27 June 1870 in the Parish Church of St Simon, Liverpool. she has married William Hamson, a seaman from Exmouth, Devon.

It is unclear whether John goes to Liverpool looking for work or whether he and Jane are going through a marriage crisis – he is an alcoholic, according to my father – and in 1881, the Hamsons and John are living at 10 Priam Street, Kirkdale. However, in 1881-82, my pregnant great-grandmother takes the family from Dumfries to Gateshead, Co Durham, where John and Jane’s fifth child, Margaret, is born.

On 30 May 1886, John signs up with the Cunard shipping line as a third baker and he joins the crew of the SS Scythia, a 4,557 gross tons steamship, which plies for several years between Liverpool and New York or Boston carrying immigrants. Between 1886 and 1887, John serves aboard the Scythia as butcher and second baker for a further four voyages out of Liverpool.

By the end of 1887, Jane has moved the whole family to Liverpool and, in 1888, she and John have their sixth child, Jane. At the 1891 census, John and Jane plus five of the six children are all living at 46 Chancel Street, Kirkdale, though on census night their fourth child, 11-year-old Agnes, is for some reason staying with the Hamsons, who have now moved to 53 Blair Street, Bootle.

After this, the trail of John Martin (now aged 41) goes cold and nothing more is heard of him – well, almost nothing. I have no reason to disbelieve my father’s story that my grandfather, when he is about 16-18 years old (between 1894-96), physically ejects his father from the family home because he had been using the housekeeping money for alcohol. The very last to be heard of John is in Jane’s death record in April 1919 which states that he is “deceased”. This is not necessarily true, but although probate of Jane’s will is granted to her sons Walter and David rather than to John, he is certainly not buried with her in Kirkdale cemetery. The burial record indicates that Jane is buried with the Hamsons.

So, what is John doing between 1891 and 1919. Where is he living, particularly at the 1901 and 1911 censuses? Are there any electoral or other local records for him in the Kirkdale area? Does he leave the area or emigrate? Is he in the local hospital or poorhouse or in prison? Does he join another ship out of Liverpool or (unlikely given his age, I guess) join the army or navy? When does he die? Where is he buried – separately at Kirkdale?

I’ve done exhaustive searches and cross-checks in most of the online records of Ancestry, Find My Past, IGI and in local BMDs for Liverpool, as well as in Scotlands People. So far, I’ve drawn a blank – apart from a possible sighting of someone with similar details in the 1901 census, who is living at Medland Hall Night Shelter for Homeless Persons, Radcliff, London. That census return of itself is not detailed enough to confirm the sighting. I am wondering what local records are available in Liverpool that might help me take my researches further and whether other people may have some ideas for further research. As I live on Tyneside, a trip to Liverpool seems to be beckoning (and maybe to the Northwich FHS Fair in February, as my trail in search of other ancestors leads there too!).

Many thanks
:)

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Tina
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by Tina »

Hi iandj
Welcome to the forum.
What a very thorough opening post and so interesting.
Good luck with your search.
  • Tina

Cornthwaite,Milburn,Coll,Gaffney,Pearce,Singleton,Hazlehurst,Cuthbert,Mackintosh,McAllister,Morana, Corfield
Any census/bmd information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

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jan44
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by jan44 »

Hi Ian,

Do you have Margaret Lorraine Martin's marriage cert to Robert Rae 1913? Just wondered if Margaret stated on that if her father was deceased or not.

I had a look in the 1911 directory for the address in Gloucester Road Bootle Margaret is listed there, Only the head of the household are listed in the directories. I see that Margaret and her husband went to America, I had a look at the passenger lists to see who they were going to, but it was Robert's father they were going to.

Jan
Clarke, McLeod, Pendleton (Liverpool and I.O.M.) Coltham, Cowley, Nickson, Huyton, Grisdale, Quirk, Knowles, Street, Howard. Knubley.

Katie
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by Katie »

On the 1901 Census does it state if Jane is a widow.? Most seafarers were away at Sea at the time of the Census. He could have died whilst at sea or when he was in a Foreign Country. Can you post details of the 1901 Census.

if you are coming to Northwich FHS bring documentation with you and hopefully we will be able to assist and steer you in the right direction.
Member 4335 KatieFD
Strays Co-ordinator

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jan44
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by jan44 »

Hi Katie,

The family are transcribed on ancestry as Marlin 1901 RG13 3469 folio 101 page 5 46 Chancel Street Kirkdale, Jane is listed as Married.

Jan
Clarke, McLeod, Pendleton (Liverpool and I.O.M.) Coltham, Cowley, Nickson, Huyton, Grisdale, Quirk, Knowles, Street, Howard. Knubley.

Katie
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by Katie »

Then he could be away at Sea. What about the 1911 Census how is Jane recorded on that Census?
Member 4335 KatieFD
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jan44
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by jan44 »

Still listed as married on the 1911 Katie.

They are in Gloucester Road Bootle.

I have been searching for marine death indexes on the familyrelatives site. There have been a few John Martin's listed, but some without an age given, and others either too young or too old. I will keep looking.

Jan
Clarke, McLeod, Pendleton (Liverpool and I.O.M.) Coltham, Cowley, Nickson, Huyton, Grisdale, Quirk, Knowles, Street, Howard. Knubley.

iandj
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Re: John Martin (1850- ?)

Post by iandj »

Thank you all for these helpful comments and suggestions.

Jan is right that the family is transcribed as 'Marlin' in Ancestry's 1901 census. I submitted a correction to that record a while ago.

Jane is marked as Head of the household in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses. In 1901, the household at 46 Chancel Street comprises Jane, Walter, Walter's wife, David, Agnes, Margaret, Jane (junior) and two grandchildren. In 1911, the household at 185 Gloucester Road, Bootle comprises Jane, Margaret, Jane (junior) and Mary Hamson, her mother. What's interesting is that both censuses record Jane as married, and that the 1911 census records Mary Hamson as a widow, so the distinction has clearly been made.

I have the marriage certificates for Walter and Jane but don't have the ones for Margaret, Mary or Agnes to hand at the moment. I'll get hold of them shortly though.

Walter married in 1896. His certificate extract states that John Martin is his father but does not indicate that John is deceased.

Jane (junior) married in 1917, which is later than the date of Margaret's marriage, and her certificate also states that John Martin is the father. What's interesting is that a line is drawn against John's name in the box marked 'Rank or Profession' whereas the registrar has used the same box against her new husband's father to state that he is deceased. This suggests either that John is definitely still alive in 1917 and not in employment or that his whereabouts are unknown.

I've found two or three John Martins of the right age who died between 1914 and 1918 in the Liverpool/West Derby area, but I've looked at their probate records and I think they are different people.

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