Catholic baptisms

[Gwebb1]

I wonder if any of you can enlighten me on these points?

I have found a marriage of Mark and Catherine in 1818 which took place in the parish of St Peter's in Liverpool. It is the usual parish record I am used to seeing. However, all their children seem to have catholic baptisms and I was wondering how 'normal' this was.
Their daughter, whose birth certificate I cannot trace, went on to marry in St Nicholas's Curch and I have no reason to believe this was a catholic wedding.

Their son, Henry, had a catholic baptism in 1822 in the parish of St Mary's. I think I have traced his burial record and this does not seem to refer to a catholic ceremony.
Another son, 'Joannes', had a catholic baptism in the parish of St Nicholas in 1827 - can anyone tell me what this is the Latin name for?.
'Edwardus' was baptised in 1831, also in the parish of St Nicholas, and he died in 1836 - the parish record refers to 'papist' so I am guessing this was a catholic burial (?).

I've also found the catholic baptism of an 'Edaurdus' who does not seem to die until just after 'Edwardus' had been born so I am a bit confused by this too!

I'm really struggling to find the birth of Mark's daughter, Catherine Devlin (Deolin, Dollin - records realting to her and the family have a variety of spellings) - my great, great grandmother. I know she was born about 1825 and that her father was a painter. I cannot find any of the family on the censuses or death records for the parents. Any ideas on how to take it further would be gratefully received.

Glen

[Bertieone]

Another spelling,



https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NGWK-RYQ

[dickiesam]

I may be corrected here by better informed folk but as far as I am aware up to the early 1900s the legal requirements for a valid marriage in England and Wales had been governed by the canon law of the Church of England and the marriage had to be conducted by an Anglican clergyman. RC couples would therefore marry in a C of E church then attend on an RC church for a blessing. Baptisms however could be conducted in the parents' church of choice.

Joannes, Joannis, Johannes, Johannis = John

How do you know Catherine was born abt 1825 if you haven't found the family in a census? Would that info be from her marriage? If yes, when, where and whom did she marry?

[dickiesam]

Another spelling,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NGWK-RYQ

Glen, would the burial that Bert found be the mother of the child Catherine bn abt 1825?
Edited to correct an error! Removed 'marriage' and inserted 'burial'.

[Bertieone]

Hi DS,

I think they are the parents,

Marriage, it is Devlin on the cert and father a painter,


Catherine Deolin



Age:
Full Age
Marriage Date:
24 Dec 1845
Parish:
Liverpool St Nicholas
Spouse's Name:
Charles Maddax
Father's Name:
Mack Deolin
Spouse Father's Name:
Charles Maddax

[Bertieone]

1891,
Liverpool Workhouse, Catherine Maddox
RG12 P2917 F93 P31


Death

Catherine Maddox



Estimated Birth Year:

abt 1826


Date of Registration:
Oct-Nov-Dec 1891
Age at Death:65
Registration district:Liverpool
Inferred County:
Lancashire
Volume:
8b
Page:
41 (

[Bertieone]

Another spelling,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NGWK-RYQ

Glen, would the marriage that Bert found be the parents of the child Catherine bn abt 1825?

Burial, Sir.

[dickiesam]

Another spelling,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NGWK-RYQ

Glen, would the marriage that Bert found be the parents of the child Catherine bn abt 1825?

Burial, Sir.

Post duly amended! Steamed up glasses.... all this rain....

[dickiesam]

1861: RG09 - Piece: 2660 - Folio: 24 - Page: 42
Address: 3 Court, Addison Street, Liverpool.
MADDOX, Charles - Head - Married - 38 - Joiner - Liverpool, Lancashire
MADDOX, Catherine - Wife - 36 - Liverpool, Lancashire
MADDOX, Thomas - Son - 14
MADDOX, Henry - Son - 11
MADDOX, Joseph - Son - 5
MADDOX, Mary - Dtr - 7
MADDOX, Charles - Son - 3
MADDOX, Martha - Dtr - 1
DEVLEN, Henry - Brother-in-law - U/m - 38
All above born Liverpool, Lancashire

[Bertieone]

I've also found the catholic baptism of an 'Edaurdus' who does not seem to die until just after 'Edwardus' had been born so I am a bit confused by this too!



Glen

Edward Develin, born, 16, Nov, 1831.
Baptised, 20, Nov, 1831,

Burial, 18, Sept, 1836.

[Bertieone]

Also,
I've dropped the Latin.
Edward Develin born 29, Oct, 1829, Baptised, 8 Nov,1829, and a burial 8 Jan 1832,

Need to sought out who's who and what's what,

[dickiesam]

1871: RG10 - Piece: 3767 - Folio: 110 - Page: 43
Address: 3 House, 23 Court, Addison Street, Liverpool
MADDOX, Catherine - Head - Widow - 48 - Housekeeper
MADDOX, Thomas - Son - u/m - 24 - Plumber
MADDOX, Henry - Son - u/m - 20 - Coppersmith
MADDOX, Joseph - Son - 15 - Coppersmith
MADDOX, Charles - Son - 13 - Scholar.
All bn Liverpool.

Death?: MADDOX, Charles
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1867; Mar qtr
Age at death: 46
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 77

[dickiesam]

1881: RG11 - Piece: 3605 - Folio: 154 - Page: 30
Address: 3 House, 23 Court, Off Sawney Pope St, Liverpool
MADDOX, Catherine - Head - Widow - 56
MADDOX, Charles - Son - u/m - 24 - Painter
MADDOX, Joseph - Son - u/m - 25 - Copper Smith
MILLER, Augusta - Visitor - u/m - 15 - Egremont, Cheshire
KENEDY, James - Boarder - u/m - 21 - General Labourer - Liverpool, Lancashire
BYRAN, Fanny - Boarder - Widow - 63 - Bag Dealer - Glasgow, Scotland
KENEDY, Ann - Mother - Widow - 62 - Ireland
KENEDY, Roseanah - Dtr - u/m - 30 - Basket Woman - Liverpool, Lancashire

[Bertieone]

Both births belong to Mark Devlin and Catherine Davies,

Perhaps the child born 1829 was poorly and wasn't expected to live and they named the child born in Nov 1831 in his honour?


Link for further reference

http://freereg.rootsweb.com/howto/latinnames.htm

[Katie]

Marriages at that time as stated by DS took place in CofE churches and in some cases the couple had their married blessed in the Catholic Church after the ceremony in the Church of England. Who ever said Family history isn't confusing, its the confusion that makes the story.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks for all your ideas - they have really clarified things. I didn't know about the marriage arrangements so I'll now be rviewing details of other ancestors. Info re: latin names was also really useful.
The Catherine Develin burial definitely refers to the mother of the Catherine b. 1825 - confirms a baptism for a Catherine Davies in 1801 that I was taking a punt with as her father was called Edward and this linked in with the 2 baptisms in 1829 and 1831. So thanks a million folks!

My original post was misleading - sorry about that. I had traced Catherine Devlin/Maddox from the time of her marriage in 1845 but had no other info. re: siblings or parents. However, your posts have made me look at everything again.
For instance, I wasn't sure about the 1891 census entry re: Catherine. Her being in the Workhouse makes sense as the sons she had lived with in 1881 were no longer at home - Joseph had married and Charles was a lodger in Blackburn at the time of the 1891 census (surname transcribed as 'Haddock'). But the 1891 record says she was married when she was actually widowed - any way I can check further as to whether it is my Catherine?
1881 census has her living in '3 House 23 Court off Sawney Pope St', her death certificate in Oct 1891 gives her address as '3 House 23 Court Addison St' - are these the same addresses?

I think I may ave found the elsive birth of catherine Develin, the younger - again, thanks to your posts but I would welcome your views on this one. I've found a catholic baptism for a Catharina Donallin for 17 Jan 1826 in the parish of St Nicholas (d.o.b. 10th Jan) but parents are down as Mathai Donallin (father) and Birzetta Donallin (m) - do you think I've got the right one?

Glen

[Bertieone]

I think I may ave found the elsive birth of catherine Develin, the younger - again, thanks to your posts but I would welcome your views on this one. I've found a catholic baptism for a Catharina Donallin for 17 Jan 1826 in the parish of St Nicholas (d.o.b. 10th Jan) but parents are down as Mathai Donallin (father) and Birzetta Donallin (m) - do you think I've got the right one?

Glen

Wouldn't they spell the mothers name the same as the child? Both Catherine.

[dickiesam]

For instance, I wasn't sure about the 1891 census entry re: Catherine. Her being in the Workhouse makes sense as the sons she had lived with in 1881 were no longer at home

Response removed. Misunderstanding of query.

[dickiesam]

I've found a catholic baptism for a Catharina Donallin for 17 Jan 1826 in the parish of St Nicholas (d.o.b. 10th Jan) but parents are down as Mathai Donallin (father) and Birzetta Donallin (m) - do you think I've got the right one?

I doubt that this is the same family. Donallin is a French surname and the two given forenames are not Latin versions of 'English' names. Mathai is a derivative of the Greek Matthaios from the Hebrew for Matthew. Also, the classic Latin alphabet doesn't have a 'z' in it, as in Birzetta.

[Blue70]

Before 1837 RC marriages were not legal ceremonies according to the law of the land. From 1837 onwards RC marriage ceremonies were legal if the RC church was licensed to conduct marriages and a registrar was present to record the events. See the information below:-

http://www.1837.com/civil-registration/

"The biggest change as a result of the Marriage Act was that, from 1837, marriages didn't have to take place in a church and now had the alternative of having the marriage ceremony take place in a local register office. Anglicans, Jews and Quakers continued to conduct and register their own marriage ceremonies. For religious ceremonies, there were two new registers, one of which stayed with the church, synagogue or meeting house and the other was sent to the registrar. Other denominations had to apply for their places of worship to be licensed to conduct marriages and could only conduct a ceremony there if, as well as the minister, a registrar was also present to record the events in a Register Office marriage register."


Blue