Catholic baptisms

[Blue70]

My Catholic ancestors in Liverpool married in the Church of England and then baptised the children in the RC church. According to a local researcher this was a very common practice even after 1837:-

"Many Catholic couples married at C of E churches. They always baptised their children 'properly' but I think they considered marriage to be as much a legal as a religious requirement. Perhaps it was cheaper and easier to get married at a C of E church. At a Catholic church you would have to obtain a 'certificate' (instead of banns) and then pay both the priest and the registrar. At a C of E church three readings of the banns would suffice plus the vicar acted as the registrar.

Catholic couples marrying elsewhere was considered to be such a problem that the church introduced a new marriage law in 1908 making only marriages at Catholic churches valid. It is after this date that the practice of adding the information about subsequent marriages to the baptism entries were introduced. When the marriage parties applied for their baptism details the priest was meant to add the new information but looking at the registers its obvious that some of them were more efficient than others. The absence of marriage information doesn't mean any particular child didn't marry."


Blue

[Gwebb1]

Thanks again for your input, folks - my knowledge base is expanding all the time!

Annoying about the Catharina Donallin birth record - I do not seem able to find any other records for Birzetta and co so was hoping it was a recording error in the record but you are right - too much of a long shot!

Re: my reference to Catherine Maddox and the Workhouse. 1881 census has her living at 3 House 23 Court off Sawney Pope St with 2 unmarried sons. At the time of the 1991 census, 1 son is married and the other is a lodger in Blackburn and there is a record of a Catherine Maddox who is married living as an inmate in the Workhouse, but my Catherine was widowed at this time. She then dies in October 1891 at 3 House 23 Court Addison St. and address she is also at at the time of the 1861 and 1871 censuses and possibly in 1851 as well (3 Jones Court, off Sawney Pope St).
Is it likely she would have gone to the Workhouse and then back to where she had been living? Or when the census says 'in-mate' could this mean she was a patient in the hospital?

I eagerly await your comments!

Glen

[Bertieone]

Can't say for sure if that is Catherine in the Workhouse, but people did get discharged, so it is possible she went back to the abode she died at.

Need to try and find out who was at the address she died at for the 1891 census.

[MaryA]

Need to try and find out who was at the address she died at for the 1891 census.

Can't find 23 Court, Addison Street. These are the references for Addison Street but the Courts seem to end at 19 in the odd numbers, there are more even numbers, but maybe another pair of eyes would help.
Addison Street RG 12/2906 90-91, 102
Addison Street RG 12/2907 7-8, 87-90
Addison Street RG 12/2907 8
Addison Street Courts, Addison Street RG 12/2906 90-91,

[Bertieone]

Thanks Mary,

Property missed out perhaps?

[alcavtay]

for future reference, this page has a list of latin names which I have found very useful
http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/latin-names.html

Amanda

[dickiesam]

for future reference, this page has a list of latin names which I have found very useful
http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/latin-names.html

Amanda

And here's another one...
http://www.from-ireland.net/irish-names ... In-English

[Gwebb1]

Thanks for all your advice re: Latin names. They have certainly helped me rule out the birth record I thought I may have found for Catherine Devlin and I'm sure I will make good use of them on other occasions too.

The missing 23 Court Addison Street is a mystery as this address is referred to on several documents. Bang goes my hope of using the Findmypast address facility to discover who lived there at the time of the 1891 census.
Anyone have any ideas how I can explore this one further?
I think I remember hearing about a website, possibly connected with Rootschat, which focused on court dwellings but I don't know if it is still going.

Also, re: Catherine Maddox in the Workhouse 1891 - she is recorded as being an 'inmate' so is there any way I can check whether she was an inmate of the Workhouse or a patient in the hospital? Mercifully, I have not needed to look at many Workhouse records even if most of my ancestors did live in courts and cellars!

Glen

[MaryA]

If it was a description of court housing that you wanted, the Port Cities website for Liverpool had a good one but the site seems to be down at the moment.

There is a bit about it and a short video also on the Liverpool Museum website http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/ ... using.aspx

The workhouse admissions registers will be held at the Liverpool Record Office which unfortunately is closed while everything is being moved back into the library, will be open again mid May.

[dickiesam]

Musing re '23 Court', Addison Street...

In the 1871 '23 Court' is off Sawney Pope Street. Sawney is a contraction for Alexander so Sawney Pope Street was really Alexander Pope Street and it is listed as the latter in the Liverpool A to Z. http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... treets.htm

Addison Street and Sawney Pope ran parallel to each other so I think 23 Court was an open-ended Court between the two streets. Depending on the enumerator it could be put in with either street on the walk-about in 1891. Or if different enumerators did the two streets maybe the Court was missed if one thought the other had covered it. I have seen at least one instance of the same family being enumerated twice, maybe once from the front door and the other at the back, by different enumerators? So missing out a Court is a possibility.

RE:

She then dies in October 1891 at 3 House 23 Court Addison St.

Glen, if you have the death cert who was the informant and what was their relationship to Catherine and their address?

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Mary and DS.

I'm guessing from what you say about the Workhouse records, Mary, that I would not be able to tell from the census entry whether someone is a patient of the hospital or inmate of the Workhouse. In which case, I will look forward to exploring the records in a few weeks time.

As for the courts, I was just wondering where I could look next re: the missing 23 Court. DS's comments were very interesting, especially as some of the records have the family living 'off Sawney Pope St'.

Re: Catherine's death certificate - her place of death is given as 3 house 23 Court Addison Street and her death was reported by her son, Thomas (my gt grandfather). At the time he was married and living in Opie Street although he had lived at the Addison Street address with his mother at the time of the 1871 census.

Glen

[MaryA]

Just to show the location of the two streets.
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... az/M10.htm

[Gwebb1]

Sawney Pope St and Addison St (thanks for the links to maps, folks) were certainly close to one another so I can see how enumerators could get confused or how an odd court could be left off. I am beginning to be convinced that the address on the 1881 census (Off Sawney Pope St 3 House 23 Court - ref RG11/3605) is the same as the address Catherine died at in Oct 1891 (3 house 23 Court Addison St) and the one she was living in at the time of the 1871 census (Addison St in 23 Court 3 house).

If this is the case, I guess it is logical that she was in the hospital rather than the Workhouse at the time of the 1891 as she then must have returned to her former address where she died of bronchitis a short time later.

Would you agree with my musings, folks?

I will try looking for Sawney Pope St on the 1891 census to see if I can find the elusive dwelling and work out who was living there when Catherine was an 'inmate' - I know the sons she lived with at the time of the 1881 census were not at the Court address in 1891. If any of you subscribe to Findmypast and can do an address search for me I would be ever so grateful - I tend to use credits for that site and this search could prove rather expensive!

Regards,
Glen

[MaryA]

The references for 1891 are
Sawney Pope RG 12/2906 92-95
Sawney Pope Courts, Sawney Pope RG 12/2906 94-95
Sawney Pope Street RG 12/2906 93, 95-96, 102

See this post for other years references
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... et+indexes

[dickiesam]

Hi Glen,
Re:

I will try looking for Sawney Pope St on the 1891 census to see if I can find the elusive dwelling and work out who was living there when Catherine was an 'inmate' - I know the sons she lived with at the time of the 1881 census were not at the Court address in 1891. If any of you subscribe to Findmypast and can do an address search for me I would be ever so grateful - I tend to use credits for that site and this search could prove rather expensive!

RG12 - Piece 2906 - Folio 95 - Page 35 comes up for both Sawney Pope Street and Sawney Pope Courts.
There is only one Court listed in 1891 for Sawney Pope Street and that is #4, with 10 dwellings but not all are occupied. In case the numbering had changed I looked for House 3 in 4 Court but it isn't listed and may have been closed up.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks for your help, Mary and DS. The site re: 'streets + indexes' helped me identify the 'Jones Court' on the 1851 census which was useful. Also, DS, you seem to have exhausted all possibilities of finding out exactly where 23 Court was so I guess I may have come to a dead end on this line of enquiry (pardon the pun!).

Thanks to the help of fellow posters, I'm very pleased to have identified Catherine Devlin's parents and the death of her mother but frustrated not to have found her birth record.

On the 1841 census I found a Catherine (d.o.b. abt 1821) and Peter (d.o.b. abt 1831) Delin living close to Preston Street, which was the birth address of Catherine's mother in 1801. I thought there might have been a link so tried looking for Peter's birth record but couldn't find that either! Feel free to explore this dubious line of enquiry if any of you have the inclination just in case it eventually leads to Catherine's elusive record.

Thanks again to all who have helped.

Regards,
Glen

[Gwebb1]

I think I may have just tracked down and ruled out Catherine and Peter 'Delin' - there was a Catherine and Peter Delaney born at the appropirate times so I think the 1841 census record probably refers to them.
Not sure how I missed them previously.

Heigh-ho - back to the drawing board!

Glen

[Gwebb1]

Still linked to the Devlins/Develins/Deolins etc: can any of you tell me were Spitalfields is/was in Liverpool? Catherine married from here in 1845 and I have found the death of a Miles Devlin at 44 Addison St in 1847 - given all Catherine's subsequent links with Sawney Pope St and Addison St I was wondering if there could be a connection.

Glen

[Bertieone]

Hi Glen,

Spitalfields is in London, they do have a Liverpool Street Station though, someone else might know different.

[Gwebb1]

Hi Bert. I know there is one in London and unfortunately that one keeps popping up if you try to google it - especially as Spitalfields Market is in Liverpool Street!

But there really is - or was- one in Liverpool. I have found it on the 1841 and 1851 street indexes and it seems to have been in the Dale Street area but I don't know how to find it on a map.

Glen