Missing Ellen Mcdonough and family after 1891

[dlh1]

After our recent success finding the Angelbeck family I thought i'd turn to the forum to help me with another of my queries.

Ellen Stevens(stephens) b c1858 in Liverpool married Michael McDonough in 1879.
They had the following children:
John b1879
Thomas b1881
Michael b1883
Daniel b1888

Michel Mcdonough, the father was a seaman and died in 1906. I can understand not finding him on a census after 1891 as he was probably away but I can't find his wife or son Daniel anywhere. Daniel did marry in 1913 and i believe Ellen Mcdonough died in 1922 but i find it strange that shes not on the 1901 or 1911 census. Anyone got any ideas? Maybe I was wrong and perhaps she died earlier than 1922 but i cant find any records of that either. Any help would be appreciated.

[dlh1]

One line of enquiry would be that they were in the workhouse. Would workhouse records appear in the 1901 and 1911 census?

[dickiesam]

One line of enquiry would be that they were in the workhouse. Would workhouse records appear in the 1901 and 1911 census?

Workhouse inmates were included in both censuses.
Courtesy of Findmypast: The count included all individual households, plus institutions such as prisons, workhouses, naval vessels and merchant vessels, and it also attempted to make an approximate count of the homeless.

Re:

Michel Mcdonough, the father was a seaman and died in 1906. Daniel did marry in 1913 and i believe Ellen Mcdonough died in 1922

Do you have the certs for Michael's death and Daniel's marriage and do they confirm they are the right people?

Daniel Mcdonough married Mary Walters
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1913; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 127

And you need the cert to prove this is your Ellen, or find the burial where there might be a clue.
Death: MCDONOUGH, Ellen
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1922; Dec qtr
Age at death: 65
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 36.

[dlh1]

One line of enquiry would be that they were in the workhouse. Would workhouse records appear in the 1901 and 1911 census?

Workhouse inmates were included in both censuses.
Courtesy of Findmypast: The count included all individual households, plus institutions such as prisons, workhouses, naval vessels and merchant vessels, and it also attempted to make an approximate count of the homeless.

Re:

Michel Mcdonough, the father was a seaman and died in 1906. Daniel did marry in 1913 and i believe Ellen Mcdonough died in 1922

Do you have the certs for Michael's death and Daniel's marriage and do they confirm they are the right people?

Daniel Mcdonough married Mary Walters
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1913; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 127

And you need the cert to prove this is your Ellen, or find the burial where there might be a clue.
Death: MCDONOUGH, Ellen
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1922; Dec qtr
Age at death: 65
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 36.

Hi DS.

I ordered the death cert for Ellen McDonough as i had been meaning to for a while and it appears to be the wrong one

So I can't find her after 1891.

Her children are buried in living in Liverpool though, althought i cant find them on a few censuses. This is tricky. I'll keep plodding along.

What a waste of £9.25 for the death cert though!

If I can't find a death for Ellen McDonough perhaps she re-married once her husband died in 1906.

[dlh1]

I also can't seem to find odd numbered dwellings for Eldon Street in 1901. They might be on there, as they lived in the area, but it appears FMP and Ancestry only have even numbered dwellings....

Has anyone else come across this? Do we have a thread that includes sections of the census for Liverpool that is missing?

Many thanks,

[dickiesam]

Pity about the wrong death cert but at least it rules out one possibility.

Re:

Michel Mcdonough, the father was a seaman and died in 1906.

Are absolutely sure you have the right death? If he died pre-1901 and Ellen remarried it could explain her 'absence' in both the 1901 and 1911.

There are two possibles for a marriage between 1891 and 1901....
From Lancashire BMDs....
1) Marriages Sep 1898 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 388:
Ellen McDonough married ROBINSON, William [Toxteth Park, St. James]
2) Marriages Sep 1898 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 444:
Ellen McDonough married Harrison, Richard [Toxteth, St. Philemon]

[Bertieone]

Of the two marriages above DS has posted, the marriage between Ellen Mcdonough and Richard Harrison is of interest, relating to Ellen's maiden name.

Marriage, 6/9/1898

Ellen Mcdonough, 42, widow, 16 Devonshire St, Father, George Stephenson, Labourer,

Richard Harrison, 41, widower, 16 Devonshire St, Father, Robert Harrison, ? Maker

Witnesses, William Richard Jones, Catherine Fenelon?


Do you have Ellen's birth cert or marriage cert that gives fathers name?

[Bertieone]

Forget the above if this is the Mcdonough marriage,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNS4-ZQ4

[dlh1]

That is indeed the marriage.

However, the toxteth park marriage deserves some more investigation. In previous censuses Ellens maiden name is spelt Stevens and also Stephens. Perhaps if i look at the 1911 census and see how many children the Ellen that married in toxteth park had it might give some more clues.

Thanks all.

[dlh1]

I've been unable to find a birth cert for Ellen, only her previous marriage cert to Michael McDonough

[dlh1]

Sorry, also re the death of Michael Mcdonough. The only death I could find suitable to his age was the one for 1906. I havn't purchased that cert. Probably should have. However I could look outside the liverpool area as he was a seaman his death may have taken place elsewhere and be registered elsewhere. What happens to british sailors who died abroad? What would their death registration district be?

Many thanks,

[dickiesam]

Sorry, also re the death of Michael Mcdonough. The only death I could find suitable to his age was the one for 1906. I havn't purchased that cert. Probably should have. However I could look outside the liverpool area as he was a seaman his death may have taken place elsewhere and be registered elsewhere. What happens to british sailors who died abroad? What would their death registration district be?

Many thanks,

Deaths of British seamen outside British territorial waters would not be recorded in the GRO Death Index. They might be recorded, with the briefest of details, in the Maritime Deaths Index or Board of Trade MN records. Sometimes only the surname is there with a date. If you are lucky you will get an initial for the forename and an indication whether the deceased was a crew member or a passenger as the latter is usually entered with red ink.

There are only two recorded up to 1901:
MCDONOUGH [no forename and a seaman]
Date of death: August 1893
Ship's name: St Peter
Series: BT334 - Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea
Page: 12; Box: 0007

MCDONOUGH, Michael
Date of death: 23 May 1894
Place of death: Roundstone, Co Galway, Ireland.
Ship's name: St Patrick
Series: BT334 - Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea
Box: 0012; Page 12.

As this man was a ships' Master a brief report as to the circumstances of his death was made. "Thole pin broke. Deceased was jerked overboard and drowned". As this man was a Master and your man was a 'seaman' I doubt this is him.

To save you looking it up... A 'thole pin' is a wooden peg set in pairs in the gunwales of a boat to serve as an oarlock [aka rowlock].

[dlh1]

Thanks DS

it might be worth me looking at this:
There are only two recorded up to 1901:
MCDONOUGH [no forename and a seaman]
Date of death: August 1893
Ship's name: St Peter
Series: BT334 - Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea
Page: 12; Box: 0007

Maybe I should see where this ship was registered.

What usually happened to the burials of those who died at sea?

[dickiesam]

Thanks DS

it might be worth me looking at this:
There are only two recorded up to 1901:
MCDONOUGH [no forename and a seaman]
Date of death: August 1893
Ship's name: St Peter
Series: BT334 - Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea
Page: 12; Box: 0007

Maybe I should see where this ship was registered.

What usually happened to the burials of those who died at sea?

Both seamen and passengers would be buried at sea. Very occasionally, if the ship was close to port and for people [passengers] of 'note', their bodies would be brought ashore and buried there. That death/burial might be recorded with the nearest British Consulate in which case it could eventually find its way into the GRO Consular BMDs. There is very little info on the death other than what I have posted.

There appear to be 2 possibles for the St Peter:
From: http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum.php
ST PETER- ID 59915 - Registered Quebec, 1869, Sail.
SS ST PETER - ID 68900 - Registered Sunderland, 1873, Steam.

[MaryA]

Can't see any mention of it in the newspapers

[colette]

Hi I think for this case you need to go backwards with Ellen Stevens I would start by getting her birth certificate.

This is the only one who fits the bill.

Births June 1858
Stevens Ellen W.Derby 8b 373.

She must have added a few years on herself when she married

Where is Ellen in 1881 ????
Is Ellen living at 4 h 4 c Pellew St in 1881 aged wrong 37, with her son down as Allan instead of John aged 3 ?? Michael not at home but his parents a few doors away John & Bridget ?.

I would assume Ellen lived near Pellew St before she married Michael for them to have met.

Regarding Daniel their son his address when he married in 1913 was 16 Pellew St after checking this address abt 1911 it looks like he was lodging there, no family connection to the residents,

Is this Daniel it says born 1886 Liverpool but there were no Daniel McDonough's born that year in Liverpool.

[dlh1]

Hi Colette.

The 1881 census you refer to is the Ellen i'm interested in. It says Allan as her son, but in fact I think this should say Thomas. I think it also says 3days rather than 3years old as Thomas (her son) was born 3 days before the census date, I have his birth cert to prove it and it's the same address as the census. Not sure why he's down as Allan. Perhaps he was originally called Allan and by the time it came to register his name they changed it to Thomas.

Did you say you've found Daniel McDonough on the 1911 census living at 16 Pellew Street? I can't seem to see him there. Also, where did you get the info that he lived at 16 Pellew Street at time of marriage? The only records for that church don't quite go up to 1913 unfortunately. Thanks for your insight though. I saw that pic of Daniel McDonough and thought it might be him, but wasn't able to check his occupation. His family were seamen so it could be him. My Daniel was born 02 Aug 1888 in Liverpool.

Thanks a lot for your help

[dlh1]

I'm now based in Birmingham so not back in Liverpool for a couple of weeks.

Can someone be a great help and do a look up for me should you have any spare time. Can you look for the Marriage for Michael McDonough and Catherine Ann Clancy 25 Dec 1903 at St.Peter's Church. That would be really useful if someone could help out.

Many thanks

[dlh1]

Sorry, meant to put 'if you are visiting the library/records office in liverpool'

[Bertieone]

I'm now based in Birmingham so not back in Liverpool for a couple of weeks.

Can someone be a great help and do a look up for me should you have any spare time. Can you look for the Marriage for Michael McDonough and Catherine Ann Clancy 25 Dec 1903 at St.Peter's Church. That would be really useful if someone could help out.

Many thanks

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJJ5-Z9R