Help with transcription please

[MaryA]

Hi all, one of our Society members has at last found a parish register original for a marriage which is a little different from the one provided by the GRO, you can see why, Mary Jane has been crossed through and replaced by "Bridget", however both names have been signed, presumably by the curate who appears to have filled in hers and both witnesses names.

As you can see he has also made a comment at the side, the words "at the time of marriage" appear clearly enough, but has anybody any suggestions what the words are on the two lines above, probably only three words in total. I think the word above is "made", so maybe just the top line is needed. Dreadful writing on behalf of the curate, but I've given the marriage entry to help with handwriting as well as my attempt at enlarging the portion in question. And just to recognise anything, William's middle name isn't Arthur as has been transcribed, but Ashton.

The other query is - what do you reckon the address is?

[dickiesam]

Wrong answer! Deleted!

[MaryA]

My bet would be it is November. The normal view is clearer than the blow-up.

Sorry, not the date, I mean the words in the margin!

[dickiesam]

My bet would be it is November. The normal view is clearer than the blow-up.

Sorry, not the date, I mean the words in the margin!

Oops, I misread the post....

How does "These alterations made at time of marriage" sound? The curate has made alterations or someone has. Now for that address.....

[dickiesam]

Thoughts.... that address

I reckon the first letter is a W It is the same as in the groom's father. The man did dot the i in almost every place so the next letter looks like an o. There's at least another 3 letters after the o, so is it Wolfe St. The squiggle underneath could be the bride's 'address' such as meaning 'ditto' or 'the same'?

The church of St Thomas is in this Wolfe Street map..
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... uw1013.htm

It's on the left, off Warwick Street, between the k of Warwick and the S of street.

[MaryA]

By jove I think you have it! Thanks, would make sense.

My guess is Wolfe St. Problem with that is that they are marrying in St Thomas, Walton on the Hill and I'm having difficulty identifying which church that is, the nearest appears to be either Seaforth, Park Lane, Toxteth or Wavertree.

The next problem she has is finding them in censuses, Roberts not the easiest name to look for

[dickiesam]

Check my amended post for a map.

[MaryA]

Putting two and two together, no matter how many I come up with. Wolfe Street and St Thomas together, sound excellent. Perhaps they lived most of their life in the Toxteth area.

When he died he was in Toxteth Workhouse, was buried 20 July 1913 but buried in Walton Park noted as a Family Grave.

[dickiesam]

The year before he died there's this..
TEST HOUSE, WEST DERBY UNION, BELMONT ROAD.
ROBERTS, William A Inmate Widower 81 1830 - Formerly A B Seaman - Liverpool.
So being a sailor he may not appear in many censuses.

[dickiesam]

Looking at possible deaths for 'Bridget' Roberts to find her YoB if possible, there aren't that many to choose from between 1870 and 1911...

Deaths Mar 1870: Roberts Bridget 45 Liverpool 8b 69
Deaths Mar 1873: Roberts Bridget 38 W. Derby 8b 258
Deaths Mar 1883: Roberts Bridget 43 W. Derby 8b 395
Deaths Jun 1898: Roberts Bridget 69 Toxteth Park 8b 183

If Bridget was near William's age the 1898 one looks good. Is there a burial for any of the above?

[Bertieone]

Name:
Bridget Roberts

Birth Year:
abt 1829
Age:
69
Death Year:
abt 1898
Burial Date:
13 Jun 1898
Parish:
Ford Cemetery
10c Maynard St

[Bertieone]

Name:
Bridget Roberts
Birth Year:
abt 1835
Age:
38
Death Year:
abt 1873
Burial Date:
12 Jan 1873
Parish:
Ford Cemetery

59 Arkwright St

[dickiesam]

Hi Bert,
The 1898 one may not be the one we are seeking. The only hit with a YoB of abt 1829 is this one...

1891: RG12 Piece: 2995 Folio: 57 Page: 51
Address: 44 Dinorban Street, West Derby, Liverpool
IRVING, Richard Head 35 1856 French Polisher - Liverpool, Lancashire
IRVING, Elizabeth J Wife 29 1862 - Liverpool, Lancashire
ROBERTS, Bridget Mother-in-law 61 1830 - Liverpool, Lancashire
ROBERTS, Robert Father-in-law 62 1829 Plasterer - Liverpool, Lancashire
IRVING, Thomas Son 5 1886 - Liverpool, Lancashire

[MaryA]

There has been a lack of census with the family on, however it is believed that you have the right William in Belmont Road but he must have been admitted to the Toxteth Workhouse within that year - perhaps because of illness? Unfortunately there are no records for Toxteth available.

We were hoping that because William was buried in a "Family Grave", definitely mentioned in the burial book (and definitely him because of the middle name of Ashton), but again there are no records of Walton Park to be checked and as we know from previous experience it is not a cemetery where you could just search the headstones and hope to come across the one.

Another problem is her name, why Mary Jane was entered, obviously in both the name box and also where the signature should be, and then crossed through replaced with Bridget. Also the name Bedelia has been thought in the family to have belonged to her - we think this is sometimes a nickname for Bridget? So this is obviously causing a difficulty over what name to search for a death.

There must of course be a child of this issue because of descendancy, I have been told her name was Mary Ellen Ashton Roberts born in 1874, I don't see any births that include that particular middle name but I have asked our Member to register with the forum and let us know exact details she has for her birth.

In the meantime, thank you all for your help so far.

[dickiesam]

Between 1873 and 1875 there were only 5 Mary Ellen births registered in the Liverpool area....

ROBERTS Mary Ellen - Liverpool 1873
ROBERTS Mary Ellen - West Derby 1873
ROBERTS Mary Ellen - West Derby 1873
ROBERTS Mary Ellen - West Derby 1874
ROBERTS Mary Ellen - Liverpool 1874

Since the names of the parents are known a birth cert application to the GRO based on the year 1873, without quoting the Volume and Page numbers [tick the 'Not Known' box for these references] should result in a hit. It is possible Ashton was added later.

Is this her marriage?
Mary Ellen A Roberts married Thomas Potts
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1892; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 787

It fits with this 1901 hit...
RG13 Piece: 3458 Folio: 43 Page: 17
Address: 25 Clare Road, Bootle Cum Linacre, Lancashire
POTTS, Thomas Head 33 1868 Engine Stoker, Railway - Litherland, Lancashire
POTTS, Mary E A Wife 27 1874 - Litherland, Lancashire
POTTS, Wm A Son 7 1894 - Litherland, Lancashire
POTTS, Ernest Son 5 1896 - Litherland, Lancashire
POTTS, Eva Dtr 3 1898 - L'pool, Lancashire
POTTS, Florie Dtr 1 1900 - Bootle, Lancashire
ROBERTS, Wm A Boarder Widower 72 1829 Dock Labourer - L'pool, Lancashire

[Heli]

St Thomas's church was in Warwick Street, Toxteth. About where Warwick Gardens now stand. Originally St Thomas's in the field, it was consecrated in 1841 and closed in 1937 to be amalgamated with St John the Baptist, Park Road. The beautiful altar was moved to a chapel in St Johns and is now, I think in St Margaret's, Princes Road.

Heli.

[MaryA]

Thank you, that extra information will be welcome I know.

[SylviaB]

First of all thank you everybody who replied. Sorry about the delay but I have some answers to your questions.

We do believe that the alterations were made at the time of the marriage, that seems logical and correct.

The address was Wolfe Street for both of them

The church was Warwick Street and thank you for the additional information about the church.

He was in the 1911 census in Belmont Road, in the Test House, but Admission Records for this is something I will need to look into.

Re the death of Bridge Roberts - the family were not RC but it could be that Bridget was, however, I don't think the dates were right because, I have a feeling that I found him in 1891 and he claimed to be a widower then. He was at 71 Princess Street, Bootle, a lodger, Dock Labourer which all fit. So if this is right then she should have died prior to 1891, also not before 1873 because this is when her daughter was born.

Birth from certificate - 12th November 1873 Mary Ellen Roberts, 24 Fletcher Street, father William Roberts, Dock Labourer, mother Bodelia Roberts, formerly DIXON of 24 Fletcher Street. She made her mark on the Certificate.

We don't have any details of any siblings yet.

[SylviaB]

I am interested in discovering the following:

1. Where he was in 1851 or 1861, but it's possible he was at sea.
2. Who was he married to and who was she married to before they got together and was DIXON her maiden or previous married name?
3. Where were William, Bridget (or Bodelia) and also later Mary Ellen in 1871 and 1881.
4. Obviously when did Bridge die, we believe before 1891 and maybe even before 1881.

I appreciate your help.

[MaryA]

Mary Ellen's baptism at St James, Toxteth, as it is 1873 and the marriage was in 1864 it would be a little strange if there were no other children.