Thorn-Parry Marriage...

[Graeme]

Hello again - hopefully this will be a quick one. I've been trying to confirm the marriage of Daisy Thorn to Joseph Parry. According to the 1911 Census, Daisy was 17, single and living in Liverpool, while all I have for Joseph so far is a couple of old B&W photos. I do know that in 1913 (in Toronto) Joe and Daisy welcomed a daughter and the record of that birth lists whether or not the parents were married (yes), as well as the date and location of the marriage (Liverpool, August 6, 1911(?) - it's a poor copy and the year is difficult to make out). However, to date I haven't been able to locate a corresponding index, church record or any other mention of this marriage, so I'm going to need a little help, thanks.

Graeme

[Bertieone]

For the crew,

The Thorn family, 1911, RG14 Piece22166, legally changed their name from Murrell, 1901, RG13 P402, F78, Page1, in 1913, notice in the London Gazette, (info, Family trees, Anc)

[MaryA]

Although Daisy might well be short for Margaret or even another name, a search of just the two surnames (including Thorn/e) has produced no results.

Unless they married on board ship and somehow the entry didn't get to the GRO collection, then I think you may have to accept that this was a little while lie to save face in view of the imminence of the baby's arrival and the marriage never did happen. It would be easy to say it took place in Liverpool, so far away that it would never be checked - until you came along

In view of Bert's information above, I did another search with the name Murrell, but I still think there may not have been a marriage.

[Tina]

Hi folks, there is a birth in Free BMD for a Daisy Murrell W Dby, sept qtr 1893.
She was 17 in 1911.
Could her bro be Herbert Thorn bn 1899 went to Canada 1920?
Marriage Herbert Samuel Morrell to Jane Douglas 3rd qtr 1892 Lpool
Herbert & Jane in 1911 as Thorn??

[Tina]

1901 Daisy Murrell 7yrs dghtr bn Lpool
Herbert 28 bn Deptford confectioner/baker, Jane 29 bn Hammersmith
Rosa 3 bn Lpl, Herbert W 1 bn Lambeth.
Address looks like 30 Lower Marsh Lambeth.
What's with the name change to Thorn??
Tks

[Bertieone]

http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/berti ... 3.jpg.html

The marriage place and Date,

??????????

[MaryA]

Well I could read that as either July or Aug, and wouldn't be too sure that it said Liverpool either.

However, it was a search of all Counties that I did and still didn't find it.

In view of the date of the baby's birth I would still keep an open mind about a marriage having taken place.

[Bertieone]

This is the child,


Ontario, Canada Births, 1869-1913
about Evelyn Debroah Parry
Name:
Evelyn Debroah Parry
Date of Birth:
9 Sep 1913
Gender:
Female
Birth County or District:
York
Father's Name:
Joseph Parry
Mother's Name:
Thorn
Archive Name:
Archives of Ontario

[Bertieone]

http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/berti ... f.jpg.html

Edited. Misleading.

[MaryA]

I'm having difficulty understanding that form Bert - not surprising really, but isn't it three separate entries?

[Bertieone]

Just noticed that myself Mary,
I went to the next Form/Page which is clear as daylight, you're right, I'll delete the questions.

[Graeme]

Thank you all for the contributions - I'll combine my responses here:

Yes, Bertie, Daisy's father, Herbert Ambrose Murrell, legally changed the family name to Thorn by deed poll in 1913 with the announcement appearing in the London Gazette later that year. The family had been known pubicly as Thorn at least as early as the 1911 census (RG14; Piece: 22166), but were still Murrell living in London on the previous one (RG13; Piece: 402; Folio: 78; Page: 1). The most plausible explanation is that Herbert may have discovered who his real father was; his mother seems to have had two marriages in very quck succession and the first one was of very short duration. I haven't gone very far down that road yet, but hope one day to look up the deed poll for clues - fortunately it was properly registered, but due to the added cost in doing so, the vast majority were not.

Tina, the information you provided is indeed the same family, and as I mentioned, we too have been wondering about the reason for the name change.

Mary, because we haven't been able to find a record, I did start to raise the same questions as to whether it actually took place. Apparently they weren't in Canada for long, permanently returning to the U.K. in the mid-1920's (while in Canada they owned and operated a small dairy farm). Perhaps they fled the country because they had, or were about to have, an illegitimate child?

Bertie again - you seem to have found the same poor rendition of the Archives of Ontario record for the birth of Evelyn Deborah Parry that I alluded to initially (incidentally, the family always called her "Dibbs"), however I'm going to disagree with you about the illegitimacy being written on the form - there are six separate entries on the page - Evelyn's is 011510 - no indication of twin, triplet or illegitimacy there. The quality of the copy is so poor that it is understandable.

Seems that whether or not the marriage took place is still an open question. Will keep digging though...

Thanks all,


Graeme

[Graeme]

Ah, Bertie and Mary - I see you have already noticed the multiple entries on that Ontario Archives record...

[MaryA]

Perhaps they fled the country because they had, or were about to have, an illegitimate child?

That doesn't fit well with me, an illegitimate child would be a reason for the family to encourage them to marry. Possibly other reasons were that the trip was already planned, perhaps with the intention of marrying in Canada, when the pregnancy overtook them, or else maybe there was opposition to the marriage.

Have you found any passenger records that details their names?

[Graeme]

Mary, you are right of course; I was merely speculating off the cuff and may have been wide of the mark. It would be an unusual occurrence in the family as Daisy always said she was close to her own Dad (Herbert). Funny you should ask about the travel records - I spent a fair few minutes looking for just that the other day but came up empty. Time to have another look I think...

[Hilary]

I would look carefully at Joseph maybe he wasn't in a position to marry!

Some years ago Canadian relatives asked me to look for the marriage entry of their grandparents. The relatives' father's birth certificate stated the year and place the couple were married in (1910). This would have been the year before they left the UK and the year before the child was born. The story was that the woman was terribly ill on a rough crossing of the Atlantic.

I searched for a marriage but there was none! When the 1911 census came out I found the women and her husband yes living in the place they were supposed to have married in BUT The man was married and the woman he was supposed to have married was actually the servant.

They left later that year on consecutive tickets to Canada. The Atlantic wasn't rough she was pregnant!

There was no marriage in either the UK or Canada. I managed to contact one of the man's family and the story they have was that he ran off!

Maybe your couple told the Canadian authorities they were married in England and then said on their return they were married in Canada.

[simone]

Could her bro be Herbert Thorn bn 1899 went to Canada 1920?
Marriage Herbert Samuel Morrell to Jane Douglas 3rd qtr 1892 Lpool
Herbert & Jane in 1911 as Thorn??

don't think its' that one Tina
looks like this one

[simone]

Hi Graeme

Did Evelyn marry? do you have a marriage cert for her? anymore info about Joseph?

did they come back to Liverpool?
there's an Evelyn D Parry married in Jun q 1941 Liverpool, spouse name Evans?
one in Worcestershire sep q 1934, spouse- kelson

Simone x

[Graeme]

Just to put things together - Herbert Walter ("Bertie") Thorn was Daisy's brother; Rosa Thorn, who signed as a witness to his marriage to Emily Hughes, was her sister; their father was the aforementioned Herbert Ambrose Murrell who changed the family name to Thorn, and his first wife was Jane Douglas (his second wife was Gertrude Stackhouse who was discussed in a previous post). Our "Dibbs" (Evelyn Deborah Parry) did indeed marry Ivor Frederick Kelson in 1934 in Kidderminster. I haven't started sending away for copies of the certificates yet.

Unfortunately, I only took up this family tree quest in earnest within the last couple of years - it's completely absorbing and at times my wife has had to drag me away from the computer (lately she has caught the bug and occasionally I have had to do the same to her!). So far I don't have any formal biographical information about Joseph Parry; I only have the family photos I mentioned in my initial post. I did meet him a few times when I was a youngster and remember having the impression he was a bit older than she was, but not significantly so - that and a few quid might get you a latte at starbucks...

I would look carefully at Joseph maybe he wasn't in a position to marry!
...
Maybe your couple told the Canadian authorities they were married in England and then said on their return they were married in Canada.

Hillary, your theory is entirely plausible, but I'd like to believe they would have the support at home as Mary said earlier. They did remain in Canada for 10 years or so before returning to the U.K. (Family lore says they sold their farm in Toronto and returned to England to open a hotel they called The Swan, but I haven't given much thought to that). As Mary suggested I'm going to look for passenger records to narrow their travel dates. It seems I need to further investigate Joseph Parry - not exactly a John Jones type of name, but near enough - I had a quick look a few months ago and came up with so many that I had to put it aside until I had the time.

To All: May I presume it is has now been conclusively determined that there is no Liverpool marriage record on file for Daisy and Joe for the relevant time?

So much for this being a quick one... Thanks again everyone!

Graeme

[MaryA]

To All: May I presume it is has now been conclusively determined that there is no Liverpool marriage record on file for Daisy and Joe for the relevant time?

Not one that many pairs of eyes can find anyway, not just Liverpool but England.