Ellison/Roberts - A family mystery ?

[VicMar1]

Purely speculative, given what I am turning up, but he does seem to be a 'jack the lad' doesn't he,and after seeing his short service record and given reason for discharge something of a shirker ? I, like DS , am wondering whether 'Robert Elgin' (Ann's 'former') may still have been alive and waiting to do some kicking of his own as they all seemed to be associated with the docks in some way,maybe 'David' was staying low,?
I have no doubt whatsoever that "David" was really Horatio.
The timing of the census 1911 (April 2nd) is so close to being full term to my Mums birthdate (14/2/1912) and his name in the appropriate place on the B/C was my start point (since then I have found private letters that can only be interpreted as such).
By the by,in regards to that last point,he must have been present at the registrars in order for Ann to have named him as 'Father' mustn't he ?
I've discovered also that when he eventually married in 1921 his new wife had a tragic history of her own which leads me to believe that she may not have been responsible for any dictat to get rid of the children,she was orphaned herself and spent a long time at Brownlow hill workhouse as a toddler,and somehow defied the odds to become a sick nurse (poor law) working/training at St Pancras,London in 1911 [census],obviously returning to Liverpool and how GrandPappy managed to meet her ?
I'm sure there are clues there to give away Ann sr's death(1919) and the eventual 'adoption' of the children that were left.

The imagination runs wild in search for solid facts.
My search is in limbo right now while awaiting permission to explore newly discovered avenues
Just gotta keep hammering at the wall in the meantime

[dickiesam]

Hi Vic,

By the by,in regards to that last point,he must have been present at the registrars in order for Ann to have named him as 'Father' mustn't he ?

If Annie said she was married there was no requirement for the father to be present at a birth registration. An unmarried mother was not permitted to name the father on the birth cert without the father actually attending on the Registrar and 'confirming' the child was his.

If it is any consolation, there are some mysteries in our families' histories which will never be solved.... missing people who simply vanished, why did someone do this or that...

[VicMar1]

Hmmmm!! how nonsensical ? No need to prove marriage,just say that you are, and then name anyone you might like to blame for the dirty deed ??
Obviously the same name as you are supposed to be married to ?
How do any of us know who we really are then ? By trust alone ?

I was always under the impression that said parents had to both be in attendance to avoid exactly that situation ?

Sort of makes everything you discover from 'official' sources a little more untrustworthy ? Quite appropriate under modern day circumstance ?

[dickiesam]

I understand it was a serious offence for a woman to claim a particular man was the father of her child if she wasn't married to him. The Registrar would have asked the question "Are you married" of the mother. It would be considered as possible slander for a woman to say who the father was if she wasn't married to him and then libel if his name appeared in 'print' on a birth cert without his admission to the Registrar that he was in fact the father, and in doing so he would usually accept some responsibility for the child, perhaps financial.

[MaryA]

What a wonderful discussion! I can only confirm that yes,

said parents had to both be in attendance to avoid exactly that situation

but only if they were not married .... they have claimed to be married in other circumstances and so in this I believe it would just be accepted, bet she even wore a wedding ring!

[dickiesam]

What a wonderful discussion! I can only confirm that yes,

said parents had to both be in attendance to avoid exactly that situation

but only if they were not married .... they have claimed to be married in other circumstances and so in this I believe it would just be accepted, bet she even wore a wedding ring!

Just a note about the wedding ring.... My Dad was, for some years in the 1940s, a partner in a small watch, clock and jewelry business in Great Homer Street, just across from Paddy's Market. It was a common occurrence for a 'shawlie' to come into the shop midweek to buy a 'wedding' ring made of brass, but polished with rouge on a machine to look like gold, usually because they had just pawned their gold ring up the road. Our rings were a lot cheaper than 'Uncle's'.

Sometimes, they would come in to have the ring polished if they hadn't been able to redeem the real thing. Or, if they had the real ring, my Dad would often buy the brass ring back if asked.

Edited to add: I remember occasionally a young 'wan' with no ring on her finger would come in to buy a ring and it was obvious she was 'very pregnant'. Young and innocent I asked my Dad why they would be buying a ring? He said is for the man in the Registry Office when she went to report the birth! I didn't know up til then that ladies who weren't married could have children!

[VicMar1]

Such innocence ! It becomes you DS
I'm still shocked I haven't got a tribe somewhere else I dont know about
and all for the want of a brass curtain ring ??

[VicMar1]

And yet more confusion in the Roberts clan.
As mentioned previously,my Maternal GrandFather 'Horatio' caused enough confusion by being named as 'David' on the 1911 census and it took some time to conclude that they were indeed the same person. I now find while I am backtracking his movements that in 1891 he was an orphan at a seamans mission in Brixham,not far from Devonport where he was listed as 'Horatius' and had previously been accounted for in 1881 as 'Horotio' on RG11/2212.
When he married FGF Singleton in 1921 he gave his fathers name and occupation as Francis Joseph Roberts (deceased) R.N.Engineer.
On RG11/2212 (1881)FrancEs, his mother and widowed 'head' of house is present as is a William H(enry)Roberts ="brother"(uncle!), and a large group of offspring. When I looked at the birthplaces for each of the children they were born in various Royal Navy towns along the south coast from Woolwich to Antony Wilcove in Cornwall and then to Devonport. I have found indices for all of them and determined that "Lama" Roberts is really Laura, and 'Earnest' is really Ernest Vivian Roberts amongst many other observations.
'Cogill' is still a mystery and is used for Maud,Horatio and Edwin.
I then looked further back to 1871 for Cornwall and discovered on RG10/2229 that FrancEs (the Mother) had been scribed as FrancIs (wife) but the head of the family was a ROBERT Joseph Roberts ???? AND William H (the RN pensioner brother) was there again ? All the ages/birthdates/backgrounds are fairly easy to follow and in fact I have found the baptisms for both Robert J and William H together in 1826 although they were born a few years apart,there was also a sister baptised at the same time. Their Parents appeared to be George and Rebecca and lived in "Queen Street,Woolwich" At least I think it says "queen" !??!.
This all reminds me of the "enemy dancing on a wet plank........"story of years ago.
If there is one thing I have learned from this it is not to take beaurocrats too seriously,nor what they have written ! Meanwhile I'll carry on digging !

[MaryA]

Thanks for the update Vic, you are doing really well, and also bearing out what we always say about both transcriptions and the details provided to enumerators, not forgetting how they decide they will spell things. Keep up the good work, hope to see more revelations from you as they arise.

[VicMar1]

Precisely Mary. It has been a steep learning curve but I feel I am developing an instinct for my findings and so far it has not wasted too much time and energy for me. I only hope that my experiences will benefit others and serve to re-inforce by example what every guide to family history tells us before we start.
I like to try and see the humour in it as well or we should stress terribly at some of the tales of deprivation and cruelty we uncover from times not that very long ago ??

Something DS wrote in a post very recently has given me the germ of an idea that 'Cogill' may well have been a 'benefactor' to the Roberts family and why those three contiguous births all use that name ?
You live and learn as they say, thanks DS.

[VicMar1]

Oct'13
With the benefit of further research and an open minded approach, I now think it may well be likely that the name 'Coghill' was a deliberate choice by the Matriarch, FrancEs, and may well prove to be a clue to her own background ?
In Jan 1879,during the Anglo-Zulu War,at the infamous battle of 'Rourkes Drift', a Lt Neville Coghill was KiA while trying to save the 'colours' of the Regiment? He was thought of so highly by his military peers and Officers of the realm that he was eventually honoured posthumously with the VC in 1907,after nearly 30 years of campaigning ?.
Those of the Roberts clan born at that time (and subsequently), all carry that extra given name although the spelling with an 'h' appears only when it is given or signed by those individuals themselves. As for 'Horatio',I now think it probable he was named after 'Lord' Kitchener rather than Nelson, in spite of the naval connections, and the late 1870's is the period when Kitchener rose to military prominence through his actions during the African conflicts. He was also a trained 'engineer' at Woolwich arsenal like Horatios Father and at the same time.
FrancEs' husband (be it FrancIs or Robert J ??) is assumed to have been killed during these same conflicts sometime in 1880 or thereabouts ?.
FrancEs herself is declared as born in "Simonstown, Cape" so is born 'white African' while the Roberts dynasty she had married into were all 'Senior Service' i.e Royal Navy 'Blues' and military through and through ?
There is a very strong connection to Ireland in all of these 'heros' so it sets me wondering as to her possible origins ?
Maybe its that Irish in me that keeps me digging ?

[dickiesam]

Thanks for the interesting update. Looks like you may be on the right track now re those 'added' forenames.

[MaryA]

I enjoy your updates Vic, keep at it.

[VicMar1]

Ellison/Roberts continued......!

Unfortunately I have had very disappointing results from my search for religious establishments within the RC church that may have yielded clues post 1921 for the Roberts clan.
I’m also still waiting for Anc***ry to begin releasing the South African files it absorbed from Anc24 early in 2013.

So, now I am going to have to try another route and follow up on ‘Ellen’ Letitia ELLISON from the 1901 census [RG13/3434_F119_P2],born 3rd January 1897 and ‘daughter’ of Robert Elgin Ellison and Annie Ellison (now known to be Martha Anne Ellison nee Riley), and whose baptism was at St Patricks, Jan 1897 and also later confirmed at St Michaels on 15th March 1908 with the name ‘Maria’.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 0879cc.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 25e11c.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 54676f.jpg
She is not with the “Roberts/Ellison family at 2 Town View, Everton on the night of the 1911 census because she was a patient at Stanley Hospital and appears on their census return.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 3f6c7e.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 19f7c5.jpg
It would appear that she survived the Hospitalisation and got married in the last quarter of 1917 to a Mr Alfred Brown,(unfortunately for me). She would have been just under the age of 21 at this time and her elder brother William was about to finally be declared as “formerly reported wounded,now missing” from fighting at the 3rd battle for Ypres in early October. He was believed killed on 31st July 1917.
Staying with Ellen L Brown, she departed this life in 1978
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... d50755.jpg
Is there an economical way that I could discover children from this marriage, there are plenty of possible Browns born during the following 5 years that could qualify further investigation but is there a way of getting the GRO to do the sorting ?
The marriage area is given as W.Derby and so I have concentrated on births in that area,and between 1917 to 1925. Any of those children still surviving would be in their 90's by now so a long way to go yet ?
Best advice anyone,please ?

[dickiesam]

Re Brown nee Ellison births... 1917 - 1930. FreeBMD search produces as listed below..
I have deliberately put them into 'search groups'. The reason will become apparent when you read the 'instructions' below. Hope this helps.

A) Search on 1919.
Births Jun 1918: Brown, Alfred Ellison W.Derby 8b 696
Births Dec 1919: Brown, Sabina Ellison W.Derby 8b 1009
Births Mar 1920: Brown, William J Ellison W. Derby 8b 1129
Births Sep 1920: Brown, William T Ellison Toxteth P. 8b 378
Births Dec 1920: Brown, Elizabeth Ellison W.Derby 8b 880

B) Search on 1922.
Births Mar 1922: Brown, Edward Ellison W.Derby 8b 864
Births Dec 1922:
Brown, Christina Ellison Liverpool 8b 70
Brown, Esther Ellison Liverpool 8b 219
Births Jun 1923: Brown, Helen M Ellison W.Derby 8b 794

C) Search on 1925.
Births Mar 1925: Brown, William E Ellison Liverpool 8b 233
Births Mar 1926: Brown, James Ellison W.Derby 8b 1137

D) Search on 1928.
Births Mar 1927:
Brown, Henry J Ellison Liverpool 8b 67
Brown, Mary Ellison W.Derby 8b 944
Births Sep 1927: Brown, Thomas Ellison W. Derby 8b 1126
Births Jun 1929: Brown, John Ellison W.Derby 8b 955

E) Search on 1931.
Births Jun 1930: Brown, Maureen P Ellison Liverpool 8b 67
Births Sep 1930: Brown, Robert Ellison W.Derby 8b 1074

You can get the GRO to search 1 year either side of a given year by doing the following.
When you go to the GRO site http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the 'search year' I have posted for a group of births. Even if you do know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc], don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee.

If they turn up more than one matching cert in a group they will tell you and ask for instructions.

[VicMar1]

Many Thanks DS, I vaguely could remember you posting something similar previously but couldnt find it when I searched. I will get on to that this afternoon and suspect that the group containing Alfred,Sabrina & William J is one that I am looking for. Cheers.
What would we do without you ?
Just tried to follow your instruction and after getting through first page and putting in the date only, on the next page the first fence to fall at is "*mandatory fields" [i.e "Forename of person sought"], surname is fine but a mandatory christian name is a problem.? Shall I just invent one that is NOT in the list above? Place of birth ? should I just put Lancashire,Liverpool or something equally vague ?
Parents names etc are further down the page and dont appear to present a problem.

[MaryA]

My thought re your query is to choose what you believe to be the most common name, probably William and are you sure it would be Liverpool? I believe they would class the Toxteth and West Derby entries as part of Liverpool.

Why not telephone them after you have chosen say, two or three names that you believe will be right, and be very specific with the parents names.

They were very good with me recently, I specified three different surnames, with first name, place of birth and exact date of birth, had to be right. They telephoned me and asked as there was a two day discrepancy.

If the details you give are incorrect they will refund your money.

[Bertieone]

What happens if you just write UNKNOWN in the mandatory field?

If it still fires off, won't they search by parents name anyway?

[VicMar1]

Didnt try that Bert. I am still cautious after ordering a Birth cert specifically and giving all the info from a marriage cert for same person. Realised my mistake next day and could not get any answer from Southport by phone, decided it would probably get rejected and ordered the same cert using correct info...ended up with two of them ??? Once bitten ....?
What I have done is invented a forename that is not on the list and as you say,it should all depend on an exact match with the parents I hope?

[Bertieone]

Vic,

doing a search for Alfred Brown and Ellen Ellison marriage between 1890 and 1935, BMD, England & Wales only gives one hit, yours.
At least it lessens the chance of getting the wrong one, I don't know because I've never used this system, (Anyone) will they send a cert out if the fictitious name doesn't tally with the parents?