Ellison/Roberts - A family mystery ?

[Hilary]

According to www.lancashirebmd.org.uk the marriage took place at Kirkdale St Mary. This was a Church of England church. It might be worth seeing if the registers are at Liverpool library and possibly someone could look it up. i would also try that church for possible baptisms.

Try Liverpool directories for an Alfred Brown listed in them to see where they lived and then try electoral rolls for that address in the late 1930s and later. This might give children's names.

[Hilary]

Family Search has the marriage at St Mary Kirkdale
21 October 1917 he is 23 she is 21. His father James Brown her father Robert Ellison.

[VicMar1]

Thanks Hilary,Very useful start. I am hoping that the B.C's will give me an address and I at least have Kellys 1938 to compare against. I am hoping to get to the Library/LRO tomorrow if I can make it, but if not sometime during the next week when I will do as you suggest.Thanks again to All

[MaryA]

(Anyone) will they send a cert out if the fictitious name doesn't tally with the parents?

I fear they will search for just that first name, that's what they did for me. You may well just get your money back.

If this happens try the "Unknown" option, could be worth a chance.

Meantime good luck with the baptisms and marriage, if you don't get a chance to get to the RO we won't be back until 7th January, but if it can wait until then, remind me nearer the time.

[Hilary]

It crosses my mind that Alfred may not be local. It was 1917 so he could have been in the services in the area and met Ellen. They could then have returned to his home address.

[Hilary]

It appears that Ellen Letitia Brown born 3 Jan 1897 died March Q 1978 Liverpool Reg District volume 36 page 1416

I would get her death certificate and hope it was a son or daughter registered her death. If it is you have jumped 60 years!

[Bertieone]

There's a tree on Anc,
Obviously can't remark if its correct.
Alfred and Ellen had 5 children, the first 4, the tree owner has kept private, the fifth child born was Helen May Brown, 1923-1980, married George Thomas Pugh, 1941.

[Bertieone]

To Add,

Vic,

There's a comment on the above tree,

"hi debbie again ellen letitia brown was my great granmother but we called her nina never met her husband alfred or if i did i was to young to remember but i remember nina very well hope we can be intouch with other members of the family hope to hear from you xx"

If you subscribe to Anc, it may be worth getting in touch with the comment sender, I can provide details.

[dickiesam]

What happens if you just write UNKNOWN in the mandatory field?

Did that once Bert a few years back and it worked. The GRO actually rang me here in the Emerald Isle to say they had found a birth with matching parents but the child's forename was not Unknown and "did I want the cert?".

Hopefully it will work again for Vic.

[dickiesam]

There's a tree on Anc,
Obviously can't remark if its correct.
Alfred and Ellen had 5 children, the first 4, the tree owner has kept private, the fifth child born was Helen May Brown, 1923-1980, married George Thomas Pugh, 1941.

She's in my Search Group B)...
Births Jun 1923: Brown, Helen M Ellison W.Derby 8b 794

If she was the 5th born out of 5 it shortens the search list considerably. And being a West Derby registration shortens the list further if we assume the parents stayed in roughly the same area.

[VicMar1]

Looking at the 'tree' and the 4 'private' siblings appear to all be male,so I am thinking sequentially, and with knowing some of the previous generation of forenames,likely candidates would be 1918-Alfred, 1920-William J,1922-Edward and 1926 James ? Will await response from GRO and if nothing comes of it will change tack as advised. Thank You everyone,I feel like things are moving forward again slowly but steadily.

[edit 20/12/13] Left a message on Anc re Berties find but neither the tree 'owner' nor the messager have been 'seen' at the site for a few months ? It has given me something to work with though and I have discovered both the tree 'owners' and the messengers actual locations and contact details and managed to discover some of those 'private' details of the other siblings ?
I will give it reasonable time for things to work as they might and perhaps consider a more direct, but tactful ,approach next year.
As yet there has been no development from GRO re the B/C's.

Alf and Ellen lived for some years in Walton/Kirkdale where they were married.[vol 8B p 537-1917] Witnesses to marriage were James & Caroline Brown.
It also looks very much like Ellen Letitia was widowed quite young and left to bring up her family alone? I think Alfred may have died in 1934 at the age of 40 - vol 8B p 576 (1934) (Which sort of ties in with the message on Anc I think ?)

[MaryA]

If you haven't already seen it - and it is a couple of weeks old now, you might just find this Echo article interesting.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... as-6536397

[VicMar1]

UPDATE: I am getting close to the end of my tether now.
Of the previous posts Re: search for Ellen Letitia Browns offspring it went pretty much as predicted and I got nowhere with my first attempt so took everyones advice and used the 'unknown' quantity. Still not clear as to why but was unsuccessful again? Although I havent given up (yet) !

Referring back to the 1911 census and the occupants of 2 Town View,I am still searching for a Birth Cert for young George "Roberts" and also for William ELLISON,(it seems so long ago but that is where I began my search ?)
Everything concerning these two people is sheer guesswork, was William born in Manchester or Liverpool ? is that his only given name ? Is young George a Roberts or really an Ellison ?
With such names being so commonplace it would take a kings ransom to obtain every BC and so I thought I might try the 'unknown' method. Thats where the problems start?.
For those who have followed my search of this family,there are many anomalies and not least of which is the Christian names of my 'Grandparents'
'Ann' Ellison of the 1901 census(Toxteth Park) became "Anne Roberts" of the 1911census in West Derby. She was, in fact, Christened "Martha Ann" Riley and at one time registered as 'Annie Reilly' at the baptism of one of her daughters. In 1911 she was claiming legal status of 'married' to "Davi(o) Roberts" who was, without any doubt at all, really "Horatio Coghill Roberts" (my Grandfather).

This means an awful lot of applications beginning with 'unknown', and getting the combination of parents names and registration areas exactly right will probably be something of a lottery ?

If I understand the last response correctly a second problem has also raised its head in that with common names like Brown and Roberts the GRO will only undertake to do a limited search.
Currently it is taking the GRO about 25 days to turn things around and I assume this will get even slower as the WW1 memorials get under way.
Looks like I am in for the long haul and it could be some time yet.
On the other hand searches on my Paternal line have proved far more rewarding lately I'm glad to say.
Vic

[MaryA]

If I understand the last response correctly a second problem has also raised its head in that with common names like Brown and Roberts the GRO will only undertake to do a limited search.

Unless they have said so specifically, I don't know for sure, but I do think that they would come across one sort of fitting the criteria and go for it without doing any sort of double check, so there could be another and you would never know.

On the other hand searches on my Paternal line have proved far more rewarding lately I'm glad to say.
Vic

Well at least that's good, sometimes it's better to carry on with a good line and one day something will pop up and give you an unexpected clue to the other one.

[VicMar1]

Thanks for the encouragement Mary, frustration gets to us all at some time I guess ?
I am at least thankful that I discovered something that I would never have dreamed of uncovering in the dusty recesses of an Anglican Church in Uttar Prudesh. That more than makes up for all of the beaurocratic jigsaw we have to deal with over here !

The response I received from GRO was this "We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
A three-year search has not been completed as the name appears frequently in GRO indexes, due to the lack of unique identifying information we are unable to identify the actual entry you require. We have looked at the first six entries only in the March To December quarters of 1910."
This is in response to enquiry , name - 'unknown', year-1910, parents - Ann & Horatio Roberts, place - W Derby.
Bearing in mind that I am looking for young George and am assuming that he was registered at birth as a ROBERTS,(and given that a year later that was how they declared the members of the family for the 1911 census ?) and using my Mothers B/C as a template.
When I search Indices for George specifically, I dont find too many that fit the profile in that area at that time* and only one of them is certain to have the parents I named I would have thought ? Therefore I am somewhat baffled by this response and how to interpret it ?
* In the 1911 census George is declared to be 1 year old,the census was held about April so I would have expected him to appear within the first 2 quarters of 1910 ?

[MaryA]

Give them a ring and ask them to check just those two quarters.

I recently phoned and asked for a first name check in a specific village and on an exact date, they declined that search saying that they needed a surname, so I cross referenced and birth indexes for Wirral with Cheshirebmd which gave the name of the village but a span of 2-3 years, gave three names and hoped for the best. I got a phone call saying that one name was born two days away from the date I had given. Luckily they were good enough to check with me as it turned out to be right - and resulted in a success after about 15 years searching.

So they will try their best if they are able, narrow it down to something they feel they can handle, and have patience, you WILL get a lead even if it comes along when you aren't expecting it.

[dickiesam]

Hi Vic,
Between the Dec qtr of 1909 and the Sept of 1910 there are 11 birth registrations for a George Roberts in Liverpool. However, only 5 of them are plain George. The rest have second forenames.

Births Mar 1910: ROBERTS, George W.Derby 8b 530
Births Jun 1910:
ROBERTS, George Liverpool 8b 61
ROBERTS, George W.Derby 8b 380
ROBERTS, George W.Derby 8b 545
Births Sep 1910: ROBERTS, George Liverpool 8b 7


I think a process of elimination is required and you should apply for a cert for George Roberts, born 1910, mother Ann(ie). I would name West Derby as the district but don't name the father or the qtr and don't specify volume or page numbers. The GRO will search a bit further and if they turn up more than one match they will contact you.

If that search doesn't turn up anything the GRO will refund the fee. Then go back and do the same search but specify Liverpool as the district.

As to when he died, his confirmed YoB, and perhaps actual DoB, will be of considerable help.

[VicMar1]

Hi DS, Do you mind if I ask whats behind your thinking there? I had avoided that configuration on the grounds that I have come across one or two George (something) Roberts who were born to Ann's,and thought by adding Horatios name it would be totally definitive regardless of whether the Mother is Ann,Annie or Martha ? I cant be 100% certain that George was his only given name with this lot!
I concede that you may still be unconvinced about Davio being Horatio but my search into the Brown family and Ellen Letitias fate convinced me that Robert E. Ellison,the legal Husband of Ann (Martha), died around 1906/7 and therefore I am assuming that George and my Mother were full blooded siblings ?
I still have a mountain to climb in as much as what then happened to him after 1918 when Martha died ? Or maybe he died from the Flu pandemic as well ?
With a name like George Roberts its gonna be a monumental task finding out ?
It is going to be very much a waiting game and akin to a game of bingo I guess
Will keep you posted as I go along.

[dickiesam]

Re:

Hi DS, Do you mind if I ask whats behind your thinking there?

My thinking... We have no way of knowing if the father was put on George's birth registration as Horatio or David, especially since David was put on the census form a year later. We do know the mother's name would probably be put down as Ann(ie), and there is no second forename or initial given for George in the census.

And, a 1910+1 Lancashire search for a 1 year old [1910 +/- 1 year] George Roberts bn in Liverpool produced 11 hits. A repeat search with an Ann* in the household, produced only 2 hits. One was your George with David and Ann, the other is this one...
Address: 18 Salisbury Dock, Liverpool.
ROBERTS, Edmond Head 27 1884 Licensed weighing machine keeper - Liverpool
ROBERTS, Annie Wife [Md 2 years] 24 1887 - Padgate, Lancs
ROBERTS, George Son 1 1910 - Liverpool.

With a bit of luck the GRO will find both and ask you which one you want. I have had them phone me in Ireland three times over the years in a similar search situation.

[VicMar1]

Thanks DS,I have followed your method and will wait and see what comes back.
My thinking about it was that,assuming that George WAS a Roberts (i.e Horatios) and therefore my blood Uncle ?. I also assumed that,as he (Horatio) had put his (real) name to my Mothers Birth Registration a little over two years later, he would also be on the register as father for George ?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... a3f40f.jpg

I can see now that may not be the case given all the ducking and diving he got up to prior to and during the war ("sister" for example ??)
And jusy maybe Annie had his card well and truly marked by 1912 when my Mother came along ?

Heres hoping that they do as you suggest and I dont just receive another irrelevant certificate,fingers crossed ?