Henry Church/Churcher family

[jolewis]

I am trying to find my Gt Grandfather Henry Church on the 1911 census but am unable to find him anywhere.
Henry was born in London (Middlesex) in 1859/60 I have no name of mother and two names for his father, Henry Churcher (sailor) and John Church (seaman) as found on two marriage certificates.
Henry married Ruth Roberts in 1879 in Newlyn, Cornwall and had a son also Henry. Henry was a an illiterate fisherman and married into a fishing family the Roberts family of Cornwall. In 1881 the family are listed on the IoM census all living together and still fishing, they also have a daughter, my grandmother, Margaret Churcher born on the IoM.
In 1883 Henry has shortened his name to Church (or found that that was his real surname) and has joined Liverpool City Police where he remained for 25 years retiring in 1908. Early records were destroyed in a fire so I am unable to find anything about his parents if they were listed on his application.
In 1894 Ruth dies leaving Henry, Henry, Margaret and a baby Matilda. Henry re-marries in 1895 a widow Elizabeth Bruce and they go on to have two sons, Albert and William.
By 1901 Margaret now known as Maggie Church is living in Briercliffe, but I can find no trace of her brother Henry.
In 1911 Elizabeth and her two sons are still living in Liverpool but there is no sign of her husband (Gt. Grandfather) Henry. I have searched everywhere I can think but drawn a blank. Henry doesn't die until 1939 so I know he was alive in 1911. My brother seemed to think that someone in the family had a connection with Trinity House but I have nobody to ask as all my family are now dead.
I have a photo of Gt. Grandfather wearing a smart uniform which bears a white flag insignia on his cap and it was suggested to me by Liverpool Maritime Museum (I had enquired there if they knew what the uniform was) that the uniform may be that of a commissionaire. As Liverpool had a great many shipping lines I wonder if he was a commissionaire at one of their offices after he left the police service.
Any help would be gladly welcomed as this is driving me crazy. I am unable to take Gt. Grandfather any further back than London and his son Henry seems to have disappeared!
I can forward a photo of Henry in the uniform but am not sure how to do this on the website.
Jo Lewis

[dickiesam]

Hello Jo, welcome and season's greetings.

Can you tell us the relevant census summary page references where you have found Henry? The reference will be similar to RG?? - Piece: ??? - Folio: ??? - Page: ??. For instance the 1901 reference is RG13 - Piece: 3431 - Folio: 109 - Page: 12. The 1891 will be prefixed RG12.

To post an image....
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2) Scan the relevant document in highest resolution you can manage. Make sure it is a reasonable size and is correctly orientated [not sideways or upside down!]. If you have a question about the document, you should crop the image to show only the part that is being queried, such as a name, a date or signature. If you don't have a cropping utility there is one on the Photobucket site.

3) Follow the on-screen instruction to upload your scan image to the site. Save the image to your 'Album'. If you need to work on the image there is a Media Options box on the right of screen. Select the required option and don't forget to Save when you have finished.

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[dickiesam]

Re:

Henry was born in London (Middlesex) in 1859/60 I have no name of mother and two names for his father, Henry Churcher (sailor) and John Church (seaman) as found on two marriage certificates.

I assume from the above you have not yet obtained Henry's birth certificate? There are only two matches for London births 1860, +/- 2 years...

Births Sep 1860:
CHURCHER, Henry Chelsea 1a 160
CHURCHER, Henry Wandsworth 1d 384

Because of the confusion over his father's name, although he may have been Henry John or John Henry, you could try applying for a cert with both name options but only give the year. Don't enter the district or references, just tick the NO box where the question is asked about GRO references. The only common factor is that he was apparently a merchant seaman.

[jolewis]

Having trouble with Photobucket as cannot get picture any larger no matter how I try. Have not got the relevant references as would need to go back into Ancestry to look them up and my computer is playing up at the moment so may lose you.
Will try and get back to you.

[Bertieone]

1891

Henry Church 31
Ruth Church 31
Henry Church 12
Margaret Church 9
Matilda Church 1

RG12, Piece 2929, Folio96, Page 17

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. You are right that there are no records for Police at the record office, however there are Minutes of the Watch Committee, you may find mention of him in those.

[dickiesam]

Just pondering....

Henry was a an illiterate fisherman..... In 1883 Henry has shortened his name to Church (or found that that was his real surname) and has joined Liverpool City Police where he remained for 25 years.

I doubt he was illiterate if he could join the police force. Is the illiteracy assumed from an 'X, his mark' on a marriage cert or suchlike?

[simone]

Hi

Do you have the marriage of Matilda 3/9/1911?

Matilda Massey Church
Birth Year:
abt 1889 Age:22 residence 2 Burdett Street
Marriage Date:
3 Sep 1911
Parish:
Toxteth, St Michael in the Hamlet
Spouse's Name:
Norman Whittam Nelson, 26 Coningsby Drive, liscard
Father's Name:
Henry Church - Inspector
Spouse Father's Name:
James Nelson - Painter, recorded on record as deceased
witnesses are William Henry Church and Annie Cain

[Bertieone]

Just pondering....

Henry was a an illiterate fisherman..... In 1883 Henry has shortened his name to Church (or found that that was his real surname) and has joined Liverpool City Police where he remained for 25 years.

I doubt he was illiterate if he could join the police force. Is the illiteracy assumed from an 'X, his mark' on a marriage cert or suchlike?

He signed his name when he married Elizabeth in 1895.

[dickiesam]

Looks like the son Henry passed away shortly after the census.

Death: CHURCHER, Henry
Registration district: Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1891; Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 12
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 195

[simone]

It looks like Matilda is a servant in Liscard in 1910 +1- Dutton Household
RG14; Piece: 22062

[Bertieone]

The first son, Henry, is recorded as Churches.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFB3-SZX

[dickiesam]

The first son, Henry, is recorded as Churches.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFB3-SZX

Their transcription error?

Birth: CHURCHER, Henry
Registration district: Penzance, Cornwall
Year of registration: 1879; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 5C; Page no: 279

[Bertieone]

The first son, Henry, is recorded as Churches.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFB3-SZX

Their transcription error?

Birth: CHURCHER, Henry
Registration district: Penzance, Cornwall
Year of registration: 1879; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 5C; Page no: 279

Likely, DS,

Ruth married Henry Churcher, Free BMD

Penzance, 1878, 5c 449

[dickiesam]

Henry senior in 1871?

RG10 Piece: 1154 Folio: 50 Page: 3
Address: 12 Puxol Court, West Street, Fareham, Hampshire
CHURCHER, Hannah Head 71 1800 Hawker - Ireland
CHURCHER, Henry Grandson 10 1861 - St Pancras, London
APPLETON, John Lodger 76 1795 Labourer - Midhurst, Sussex

G.mother Hannah in 1861?
RG09 Piece: 614 Folio: 150 Page: 23
Address: 17 East Street, Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex
CHURCHER, Alexander Head 59 1802 General Labourer - Broadwater, Sussex
CHURCHER, Hannah Wife 59 1802 - Broadwater, Sussex [place of birth may be an error]

Alexander and Hannah in 1851...
HO107 Piece: 1651 Folio: 211 Page: 21
Address: 11 East Street, Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex.
CHURCHER, Alexander Head 48 1803 Labourer - Worthing, Sussex
CHURCHER, Hannah Wife 48 1803 - N K [for Not Known]
CHURCHER, Hannah Dtr U/m 20 1831 - Worthing, Sussex

1841:
HO107 Piece: 1095 Book/Folio: 3/11 Page: 14
Address: East Street, Broadwater, Worthing, New Shoreham, Sussex
CHURCHER, Alexander 35 1806 - Sussex
CHURCHER, Hannah 35 1806 - Not in county
CHURCHER, Alexander 15 1826 - Sussex
CHURCHER, Jemima 12 1829 - Sussex
CHURCHER, James 7 1834 - Sussex

Daughter Hannah in 1841?
RG number: HO107 Piece: 1095 Book/Folio: 2/21 Page: 11
Address: Steyne Hotel, Broadwater, New Shoreham, Sussex
CHURCHER, Hannah 15 1826 - Sussex

With ages rounded down in 1841 this could be her bn abt 1829. Unfortunately FamilySearch only gives the birth as an extract from the 1841 census. And this might be her death...
Death: CHURCHER, Hannah
Registration district: Farnham, Surrey
Year of registration: 1859; Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Volume no: 2A; Page no: 49

If it is her it rules her out as Henry's mother. Or is one of her brothers the father?

[dickiesam]

Still musing....

Could Henry's mother be Jemima Churcher, Hannah's unmarried sister? And the father's name on the cert be a convenient fiction? We need a birth cert.

1861:
RG number: RG09 Piece: 614 Folio: 151 Page: 25
Address: 17 East Street, Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex Same address as her parents.
CHURCHER, Jemima Head U/m 32 1829 Ironer - Broadwater, Sussex
DUNFORD, Hannah Niece 8 1853 Scholar - Brighton, Sussex

[jolewis]

Well thank you all so so much, I certainly have some things to work on which I never had before.
I also have come across Hannah Churcher and Henry her grandson both hawkers in Hants.
I did consider that Henry's mother was unmarried and I suppose it is possible to save face that Henry named his father as Henry or John but it does seem rather extreme.
I am also grateful to apparently have someone solve the problem of Henry's whereabouts and that it seems that he could have died aged 12 soon after the 1891 census I must look further into that.
Henry definitely marked his marriage cert. to Ruth with an X but in 1895 he signed his cert. to Elizabeth very neatly.
I did find Matilda having married Norman Nelson and have traced their deaths but am having difficulty trying to pin down any children or grandchildren who could possibly still be alive and tell me more about my family.
The possibility of Matilda being a servant in a household in Cornwall is intriguing but as both her parents were married and lived there for some time she may have been in service to a family they knew.
Thank you again and I will try some more research and continue to try to get this photo of Gt Grandfather posted though at the moment it is too small to really distinguish anything. I have had an enlargement to A4 size of the original photo but doubt if that would be possible to send.
Jo Lewis

[jolewis]

What would I be able to find out from the Watch Committee reports and how do I access them?
Thank you Jo Lewis

[MaryA]

I haven't perused these myself but believe they might be in the nature of a diary noting various events. These are held at the Liverpool Record Office, email first if you are going to go as they are probably in document form and will need to be ordered 24 hours in advance.

[jolewis]

Thank you for that info. will try to get to the record office in the New Year after various hospital appointments, hope something turns up.

I'm sorry I was at cross purposes regarding Liscard, Cheshire and Liskeard, Cornwall. I did have the info. on Matilda's husband coming from Liscard and it has filled in the gap as to how they met.

Thanks again Jo Lewis