Major brick wall - help needed with Campbell and Manion

[dlh1]

I'm struggling to find the marriage of my ancestors Patrick Campbell and Mary Manion. Their names are found on the baptism of their child Bridget Campbell in 1870.

On their daughter Annes baptism in 1872 the mother is down as Mary Manning (so slight variation). I just can't seem to find them anywhere. They were both born in Ireland, but again no luck finding their marriage there. I was also wondering if Mary Manion had been previously married and was a widow before she met Patrick Campbell but again no luck.

I'm really hoping someone can help me.

I believe they must have been married between 1860 and 1868. Their first child, Ellen was born in 1868 (though no baptism record can be found, subsequent censuses do state she was born in Liverpool).

Patrick died in 1905 and Bridget in 1906, just short of the 1911 census which would have stated years married.

Fingers crossed someone can help me

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Can you tell us the census summary page reference for your Campbell family in 1871? It will begin with RG10 followed by Piece #, Folio #, Page #.

And because I am finding it difficult finding the family in 1891 and 1901 could you post the summary page references for those years also?

[MaryA]

You have given details from the baptisms but what about the birth certificates? Often if the mother had been widowed it would state, if the mother was informant

Married name late previous married name formerly maiden name.

That would give you a clue.

Again, have you checked the marriage indexes for Ireland - these are not as easy as the matched databases we have for England, you would need to list each entry for the groom and see if there was a matching entry for the wife, this is difficult if you aren't sure of her surname. But at least a birth certificate might be a start.

[dickiesam]

I am assuming this is your Campbell family in 1881?

RG11 Piece: 3594 Folio: 14 Page: 21
Address: 6 Ct, 7 Ho, Dryden St, Liverpool
CAMPBELL, Patrick Head 53 1828 Dock Labourer - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Mary Wife 40 1841 - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Ellen Dtr 12 1869 Hawker - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Bridget Dtr 10 1871 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Mary Dtr 7 1874 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Anne Dtr 3 1878 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire

[dickiesam]

You have given details from the baptisms but what about the birth certificates? Often if the mother had been widowed it would state, if the mother was informant

Married name late previous married name formerly maiden name.

That would give you a clue.

Hopefully I found the right family in 1881... so the children's births appear to be...
Births Sep 1868: CAMPBELL, Ellen Liverpool 8b 98
or
Births Dec 1868: CAMPBELL Ellen Liverpool 8b 179

Births Sep 1870: Campbell, Bridget Liverpool 8b 66

In the case of Ellen's birth, to make sure you get the right one ask the GRO to search on the year 1868 only, don't enter the Volume [8b] or Page [98 or 179]. Then specify the parents' names.

You have Anne baptised in 1872 but her birth eludes me for the moment and the 1881 census shows an Anne bn abt 1878?

[Bertieone]

Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Anna Campbell

Name:
Anna Campbell
Birth Date:
5 May 1878
Baptism Date:
20 May 1878
Parish:
All Souls'
Father's Name:
Patricu Campbell
Mother's Name:
Mariae Manning

[dickiesam]

Re:

Patrick died in 1905 and Bridget in 1906, just short of the 1911 census which would have stated years married.

Is Bridget a typo for Mary? And re the death of Patrick....
Deaths Dec 1905: CAMPBELL, Patrick [69] Liverpool 8b 15
Do you have the death cert to confirm this is the right Patrick. The given age at death equates with a birth year of 1836 which is 8 years out from his given YoB of 1828 in 1881.

Is this Mary's death? It is the nearest match in age, but has it been confirmed with a cert?
Deaths Mar 1906: CAMPBELL, Mary [63] Liverpool 8b 14

[simone]

Is this the family in 1871?
says all born Liverpool though and age a bit iffy on image for Bridget... could it be a 1?
2 House 2 court Kew? St

RG10; Piece: 3757; Folio: 31; Page: 58
Patrick Champell 44 labourer
Mary Champell 34
Ellen Champell 3
Bridget Champell 6

Simone x

[simone]

I notice the godmother on baptism of Bridget is Julia Manion


1871
1 in 1 court 13 Pickop? st
RG10; Piece: 3772; Folio: 16; Page: 29
Richard Mannion 60 b ireland dock labourer
Mary Mannion 50 b ireland
James Mannion 28 b ireland
Julia Mannion 14 b liverpool
Thomas Clarke 43

1861
Class: RG 9; Piece: 2661; Folio: 10; Page: 13
9 Court Midghall st
Richard Mannion 45 dock labourer, b Ireland
Mary Mannion 40 b ireland
Waller Mannion 25 - image actually says MALLEY, daughter, hawker, b Ireland
James Mannion 20 dock labourer, b ireland
Honor Mannion 11 b liverpool
Sarah Mannion 10 b liverpool
Julia Mannion 5 b Liverpool

so is MALLEY your Mary, she is about the right age...


(re possible confusion Manning/ Mannion , there is an Edward Manning who married Julia Kennedy in January 1871 and they are on census with the Kennedy family, but as Julia is already a Manion in 1870, the godmother can't be this one)

Simone x

[dlh1]

I am assuming this is your Campbell family in 1881?

RG11 Piece: 3594 Folio: 14 Page: 21
Address: 6 Ct, 7 Ho, Dryden St, Liverpool
CAMPBELL, Patrick Head 53 1828 Dock Labourer - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Mary Wife 40 1841 - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Ellen Dtr 12 1869 Hawker - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Bridget Dtr 10 1871 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Mary Dtr 7 1874 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire
CAMPBELL, Anne Dtr 3 1878 Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire

Yes that is correct.

[dlh1]

Re:

Patrick died in 1905 and Bridget in 1906, just short of the 1911 census which would have stated years married.

Is Bridget a typo for Mary? And re the death of Patrick....
Deaths Dec 1905: CAMPBELL, Patrick [69] Liverpool 8b 15
Do you have the death cert to confirm this is the right Patrick. The given age at death equates with a birth year of 1836 which is 8 years out from his given YoB of 1828 in 1881.

Is this Mary's death? It is the nearest match in age, but has it been confirmed with a cert?
Deaths Mar 1906: CAMPBELL, Mary [63] Liverpool 8b 14

I do apologise - Yes Bridget was a typo for Mary. They both died in 3 Tenterden Street.
Yes they are the correct Patrick and Mary and I do have certificates for them.

[dlh1]

Is this the family in 1871?
says all born Liverpool though and age a bit iffy on image for Bridget... could it be a 1?
2 House 2 court Kew? St

RG10; Piece: 3757; Folio: 31; Page: 58
Patrick Champell 44 labourer
Mary Champell 34
Ellen Champell 3
Bridget Champell 6

Simone x

That is correct, and I do believe this is a 1. I had this discussion with some friends a few years back (shows how long ive been researching them) and they thought it might be a 1 also, especially as children were normally written down in age order. If it was a 6 she'd be above her sister Ellen on the census.

[dlh1]

I notice the godmother on baptism of Bridget is Julia Manion


1871
1 in 1 court 13 Pickop? st
RG10; Piece: 3772; Folio: 16; Page: 29
Richard Mannion 60 b ireland dock labourer
Mary Mannion 50 b ireland
James Mannion 28 b ireland
Julia Mannion 14 b liverpool
Thomas Clarke 43

1861
Class: RG 9; Piece: 2661; Folio: 10; Page: 13
9 Court Midghall st
Richard Mannion 45 dock labourer, b Ireland
Mary Mannion 40 b ireland
Waller Mannion 25 - image actually says MALLEY, daughter, hawker, b Ireland
James Mannion 20 dock labourer, b ireland
Honor Mannion 11 b liverpool
Sarah Mannion 10 b liverpool
Julia Mannion 5 b Liverpool

so is MALLEY your Mary, she is about the right age...


(re possible confusion Manning/ Mannion , there is an Edward Manning who married Julia Kennedy in January 1871 and they are on census with the Kennedy family, but as Julia is already a Manion in 1870, the godmother can't be this one)

Simone x

Wow thank you Simone. This is definitely a line that needs some more investigation on my behalf I think. The age of Malley does match her age in the 1871 census. It wouldn't quite tie in with her death age. Is it more likely that censuses would have the wrong age or a death cert?

[simone]

there is another Julia Mannion b 1840 Liverpool on the 1881 census,RG11; Piece: 3609; Folio: 23; Page: 40, married to Richard, she has her children Michael and Margaret Connelly with her. Can't find the marriage between her and Richard but as she is a widow Julia Connelly on the 1871, RG10; Piece: 3770; Folio: 98; Page: 3, she also can't be the godmother in 1870.

Simone x

[simone]

Is it more likely that censuses would have the wrong age or a death cert?

I wouldn't rely on either being 100% -- census returns often have discrepancies, some people themselves often weren't sure how old they were exactly, and the person providing the info could very well just put an approximation. Likewise at death the informant wouldn't necessarily know the exact age.

[dlh1]

there is another Julia Mannion b 1840 Liverpool on the 1881 census,RG11; Piece: 3609; Folio: 23; Page: 40, married to Richard, she has her children Michael and Margaret Connelly with her. Can't find the marriage between her and Richard but as she is a widow Julia Connelly on the 1871, RG10; Piece: 3770; Folio: 98; Page: 3, she also can't be the godmother in 1870.

Simone x

Also there's a Julian Mannion born in March 1857 so she wouldn't have been able to marry by 1870 anyway. Could she still be a godmother aged just 13?

[dickiesam]

Great work Simone! I turn my back for an hour or two....
I would be happy to accept that Champell family as being the Campbells. Too many coincidences to be otherwise. And as for Bridget's age being read as 6, when magnified it is a 1 with a few strange spidery strokes that are common elsewhere on that summary page.

But can't find a Campbell/Mannion marriage anywhere in the GRO, so I suspect Patrick was already married. But need a birth cert for one of the children to be sure of Mary's maiden/previous name(s).

[dlh1]

Great work Simone! I turn my back for an hour or two....
I would be happy to accept that Champell family as being the Campbells. Too many coincidences to be otherwise. And as for Bridget's age being read as 6, when magnified it is a 1 with a few strange spidery strokes that are common elsewhere on that summary page.

But can't find a Campbell/Mannion marriage anywhere in the GRO, so I suspect Patrick was already married. But need a birth cert for one of the children to be sure of Mary's maiden/previous name(s).

Even though I have the baptism records do you think the birth cert might include a previous married name where the baptism record wouldn't. If that's the case then i'll go ahead and order Bridgets birth cert (to be on the safe side)... actually, let me check i dont have it already. I have been known to order the same cert twice

[dickiesam]

Even though I have the baptism records do you think the birth cert might include a previous married name where the baptism record wouldn't. If that's the case then i'll go ahead and order Bridgets birth cert (to be on the safe side)... actually, let me check i dont have it already. I have been known to order the same cert twice

Previously from MaryA...

You have given details from the baptisms but what about the birth certificates? Often if the mother had been widowed it would state, if the mother was informant, Present married name; late previous married name; formerly maiden name.

The birth cert could certainly be more informative than a baptism, in addition to the place of birth and residence of informant.

[simone]

Yes I also think you need to get a birth cert to be sure

Brian... would I ever do anything behind your back.....