Baptisms at St Patrick's RC Church, Park Place, Toxteth

[Pat Berry]

Hello
Mary found Baptisms for my Dad and his brother & sister at Our Lady of Mount Carmel RC Church before Xmas 2013. Baptisms for his twin brother and sister were not at Mount Carmel. Recently I have found that another family member living in Toxteth had been baptised at St Patrick's. If anyone is going to Liverpool Record Office I would be very pleased if they could look up MARY HIGGINS born 5 April 1913 and JAMES J HIGGINS born 5 April 1913. James J Higgins died in June 1913 and is buried in Ford Cemetery. They were living at 58A Northumberland Street, Toxteth when James J died. Mary and James J's parents were JAMES HIGGINS & MARY ELLEN DONNELLY.
Thanking you
Pat Berry in Australia

[Tina]

Hi Pat, there is a tree in Ancestry, would you like any info from this?
No details in there of their baptisms. Little James J was 1 month old when he was buried, another little angel.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Tina

Thank you for your reply but it is probably my tree that is on Ancestry (Higgins Family Tree). The other trees have copied. I am just after the rest of the Baptisms of my Dad's family. The other one after the twins is Michael who was born on 21 April 1916. We think he may have been baptised at the RC church in Eldon Street but not sure. They were living at 30 Hornby Street, Kirkdale then.
Thanks again
Regards
Pat

Hi Pat, there is a tree in Ancestry, would you like any info from this?
No details in there of their baptisms. Little James J was 1 month old when he was buried, another little angel.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Tina
I have just looked on Ancestry at the info you have found. There is another higgins family tree which is not mine. That one has the Comer & Higgins mixed up. My Higgins Family Tree I had to make "Private" as photos etc were being taken from it that didn't relate to the tree they were going to.
Regards
Pat

Hi Pat, there is a tree in Ancestry, would you like any info from this?
No details in there of their baptisms. Little James J was 1 month old when he was buried, another little angel.

[Tina]

Thanks Pat for reply, that's fair enough making your tree private in Anc.
Sorry not to be of much help.

[MaryA]

How are you so certain that the baptisms were in St Patricks? there is no evidence to support this.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Mary
In reply to your message I have no concrete evidence that twins Mary & James J Higgins were baptised at St Patrick’s RC Church in Toxteth. As you didn’t find them in Our Lady of Mount Carmel Baptisms the clue came when I found that the daughter of my Grandmother Mary Ellen Higgins’s cousin had been baptised at St Patrick’s in 1908. She was Ellen Cullen daughter of Michael Cullen who was the Godfather of Frances Higgins who you found in Mount Carmel Baptisms in 1905. On looking at the 1906 map of Toxteth I found that St Patrick’s was close to where my Grandparents James & Mary Ellen Higgins had been living in 1911-St James Terrace-Mill Street which the enumerator had changed to House 10, 4 Court, Mill Street. I have looked at all the houses in No 4 Court and found other people had called the Court, St James Terrace. It appears that No 2 Court was called Forge Place. Twin James J Higgins died in June 1913 at 58A Northumberland and was buried on 5 June 1913 at Ford Cemetery. I have been looking to see if 58A Northumberland Street could have been the “City Hospital” but I have found that it was not as in 1911 I found a person living at 58 Northumberland Street and it was a Private House. The only other RC Church in the area seems to be St Malachy’s which appears to have merged with St Patrick’s at some stage. Do you think I should get James J Higgins’s Birth Certificate to clarify where they were living in April 1913? Mary Higgins’s Birth Certificate is only a short one which doesn’t show any address.
Thanking you
Regards
Pat.

How are you so certain that the baptisms were in St Patricks? there is no evidence to support this.

[shirley]

Have you tried St Vincent de Paul. Near enough to Mill St.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Shirley
No I haven't tried St Vincent de Paul but I see that is about the same distance away as St Patrick's.
Thanks
Pat

Have you tried St Vincent de Paul. Near enough to Mill St.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Mary
Further to my message yesterday I have now ordered the Birth Certificate of James J Higgins so that we can see where he was born.
Regards
Pat

How are you so certain that the baptisms were in St Patricks? there is no evidence to support this.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Mary
I have now obtained the Birth Certificate for JAMES JOSEPH HIGGINS which says he was born at 4.45am on 5 April 1913 at 58a Northumberland Street, Toxteth Park. The Birth Certificate for MARY HIGGINS says she was born at 4.10am on 5 April 1913.
Their parents were JAMES HIGGINS & MARY ELLEN HIGGINS late COMER formerly DONNELLY.
The replies I received from my previous message suggest that St Patrick's or St Vincent de Paul may be the Church for their Baptisms. What do you suggest?
Thank you once again for your previous help.
Regards Pat Berry

How are you so certain that the baptisms were in St Patricks? there is no evidence to support this.

[Katie]

There was another R/C in the area of St. Patrick's. I cannot think of its name? Brain cells are scrambled at the moment. It's not long ago that it was demolished. Got it! St. Malachys.

St Malachy, Beaufort St., Toxteth, L8 6UA
St Malachy is located at OS Grid Reference - SJ 352882
Est 1904 - merged with St Patrick's
Source: Local

[MaryA]

The replies I received from my previous message suggest that St Patrick's

As I advised above, the baptism was definitely not St Patricks as I checked this.

[seeker]

Hi
The 1906 map of Toxteth is a help,but may I suggest to Pat Berry that if they have not tried it already, that going to http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk is a very helpful site. There they will find Liverpool BMD, maps with names of streets, churches, schools etc. Good hunting!
seeker 8041

[Pat Berry]

Hello Mary
Regarding Baptisms for Twins James Joseph & Mary Higgins in 1913.
Sorry but I have misunderstood your question of 5 February 2014
"How are you so certain that the baptisms were in St Patricks? there is no evidence to support this"
I thought you were asking me for evidence before looking in St Patrick's. I didn't realise that you had already looked in St Patrick's. I knew you had looked in Our Lady of Mount Carmel and not found them.
Thank you again for your help in finding the other three Higgins's in Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
Regards
Pat

The replies I received from my previous message suggest that St Patrick's

As I advised above, the baptism was definitely not St Patricks as I checked this.

[Pat Berry]

Hello Seeker 8041
Thank you for your message. I did know about the Liverpool History Projects site. I have bought certificates from it previously but it only goes up to 1900. I hadn't noticed the "Maps and Streets" section of it though. I have looked at the area around 58a Northumberland Street where my Higgins's were in 1913 and also Mill Street where they were in 1911. I do have the 1906 Toxteth map.
I have looked on Google Maps and today 58 Northumberland Street appears to be located near Darnley Street but I don't know if it was in the same position in 1913. St Malachy's RC Church appears to have been the closest Church.
In 1911 my Grandfather James Higgins wrote 10 St James Terrace, Mill Street on the Census Form and the Enumerator changed it to 10 House, 4 Court, Mill Street. I was alerted to a reference on Old Mersey Times to a person living in St James Terrace and it being located off Rathbone Street in 1901. The Church near there seems to be St Vincent de Paul. That Church seems to be a fair distance away from Northumberland Street so maybe it was St Malachy's where they were baptised but I don't know. When they used Our Lady of Mount Carmel they were living in Rankin Street.
Thank you for your help.
Regards
Pat

Hi
The 1906 map of Toxteth is a help,but may I suggest to Pat Berry that if they have not tried it already, that going to http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk is a very helpful site. There they will find Liverpool BMD, maps with names of streets, churches, schools etc. Good hunting!
seeker 8041

[seeker]

Hi Pat Berry
Re. Baptisms. St Malachy's Church covered the Dingle area, and not Toxteth. Darnley St. was formerly Albert St. If I may respectfully point out 58/58a Northumberland St (1913) sounds like a big house. In those days courts were the norm for dockers and labourers (unless he was running a business) It was not unusual when people were registering bmd to state the nearest main road or street to them especially with the changes being made to addresses in their area.
Regards, seeker

[MaryA]

Nice to have a response from somebody with knowledge of the local area, thanks seeker

[Pat Berry]

Hello Seeker
Thanks for your information regarding 58 Northumberland Street and surrounding area. My Grandfather was a Dock Labourer in 1911 at Mill street. In 1913 at 58a Northumberland street he was a Builder's Labourer. Then when he moved to 30 Hornby Street, Kirkdale he was a Gas Works Labourer (probably at Athol Street Gas Works). My Grandmother Mary Ellen Donnelly was a Beerhouse Keeper at the Shamrock Tavern in Tea Street Prescot when she married my Grandfather James Higgins in 1902 and they were there until about 1905 when they moved to Toxteth.
On the 1911 Census a Power/McCartney family were living at 58 Northumberland Street and it appears to have been a 6 room house. Further down the road at 35 it was 4 room house. There were a lot of shops and Pubs. On the 1911 Gores Directory it says a Richard Henry Haskayne (Tailor's Presser) was living at 58 Northumberland Street but he says he is living at 7 Seiont Terrace in 1911 Census.
My Grandmother says her son James Joseph Higgins was born at 58a Northumberland Street on 5 April 1913 according to the Birth Certificate and on 5 June 1913 she gave the same address to Ford Cemetery when he was buried. I am going to get Michael Higgins's Birth Certificate to see if he was born at 30 Hornby Street. He was registered in Liverpool North. I have looked at Northumberland Street on Google Street View and it appears there are some old houses 147-171 still there. I will forget about the Baptisms for Mary & James Joseph Higgins for the moment.
Thank you once again for your help.
Pat

Hi Pat Berry
Re. Baptisms. St Malachy's Church covered the Dingle area, and not Toxteth. Darnley St. was formerly Albert St. If I may respectfully point out 58/58a Northumberland St (1913) sounds like a big house. In those days courts were the norm for dockers and labourers (unless he was running a business) It was not unusual when people were registering bmd to state the nearest main road or street to them especially with the changes being made to addresses in their area.
Regards, seeker

[Katie]

The twin were baptised in St. Malachy's

5th April 1913 Bap 12th April 1913

James Joseph Higgins Son of James and Mary Higgins (nee Donnelly)

G/Parent: Margaret Comer

5th April 1913 Bap 12th April 1913

Mary Higgins daughter of James and Mary Higgins (nee Donnelly)

G/Parent: Elizabeth Sloan Married James Moran at Our Lady's Reconciliation, Eldon Street30/9/1939