Keating family tree

[AllanKeating]

I am completely new to this and have been trying to trace my great grandparents who I understand lived in West Derby. I have a marriage certificate for my grandfather John Keating who married Mary Flanagan in Birkenhead on April 19th 1909 and I believe that my grandfather lives in Myrtle Buildings, Holly Street, Liverpool. My grandfathers age on the marriage certificate is 24 so I guess he would have been born around 1885. Can anyone suggest how I moved forward with this. I have tried a few searches on Ancestry.com where i get a lot of answers if I don't search on specifics but if I put in definite information from the marriage certificate I get no hits.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Can you please give the full details from the marriage certificate, including father's name and occupation and any witnesses too.

[MaryA]

Could this occupation match your John, from the first census after their marriage? and do you know anything of their children?
66 Bridge Street, Birkenhead, Cheshire
John Keating Head M 30 Music Hall manager Liverpool
Mary Wife 28 Married 4 years, 1 child Cheshire, Birkenhead
Marjorie Keating age 3 Birkenhead
Class: RG14; Piece: 21962 Enumeration District : 05

Are you able to give any details of your father?

There are possibly six children born after 1915 to this couple, Andrew 1915, Thomas 1919, Mary V 1922, Gerard 1924, Francis J 1927 and Joan 1928, all registered in Birkenhead.

There is a birth for a Marjorie Mary in Q3 1907 Birkenhead 8a 522

[Bertieone]

Hi,

The John Keating, Mary posted above at one time was acting manager of the Argyle Theatre, Birkenhead. He lived in 1916 (directory) at 50 Chesnut Grove, Tranmere, Birkenhead. Does the image look familiar to you.

John Keating.

[dickiesam]

Assuming the given age in the 1911 census is more or less correct, in the 1901 census there are only 3 John Keatings bn abt 1881 listed under Liverpool. Only one of these was born in Liverpool, the other two being Irish.
RG13 Piece 3423 Folio 28 Page 4
Court 4, House 1, Springfield Street, Liverpool
Mary E Lowman Head Married 45 1856 Office Cleaner - Liverpool
Richard Lowman Son 16 1885 Errand Boy - Liverpool
Mary Keating mother Widow 63 1838 Office Cleaner - Madras, India B S
John Keating Nephew u/m 20 1881 General Clerk - Liverpool

[dickiesam]

There are only 3 births for a John Keating in Liverpool 1880 to 1882...

Births Dec 1880: KEATING, John Joseph - Liverpool 8b 13
Births Sep 1881: Keating, John McKayle - W. Derby 8b 326
Births Jun 1882: KEATING, John Richard - W. Derby 8b 443

But in his marriage he is just plain John...
Marriages Jun 1909: KEATING, John and FLANAGAN, Mary - Birkenhead 8a 1071

We need his father's name/occupation from the marriage cert!

[Bertieone]

1871


Name:
Mary Keating
Age:
32
Estimated birth year:
abt 1839
Relation:
Wife
Spouse's Name:
John Keating
Gender:
Female
Where born:
Madrass, India
Civil Parish:
Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish:
St Nicholas
Registration district:
Liverpool
Piece:
3771
Folio:
64
Page Number:
20
John Keating 36, Ireland, House Painter
Mary Keating 32
Mary E Keating 15

[Karen]

I have a marriage certificate for my grandfather John Keating who married Mary Flanagan in Birkenhead on April 19th 1909

My grandfathers age on the marriage certificate is 24 so I guess he would have been born around 1885.

If these details are correct, then this may fit:

1911: 4 Jenkinson Street (?), Liverpool

John Keating head 26 Postman born Liverpool
Mary Keating wife 23 married 2 years born Birkenhead
Mary Alice Keating daughter 10 months born Birkenhead
Mary Ellen Lowson(?) mother-in-law 56 widow Charwoman born Liverpool

Registration District Number: 455
Sub-registration district: South Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Piece: 22547

[MaryA]

We definitely need details from the marriage certificate and also whether our poster knows details of children to them.

[AllanKeating]

Thanks to everyone for trying to help me with this and also apologies for being waylaid by other things and then completely forgetting this thread. But now I have returned to it and read all the replies. This is what I think.
The person described as the Manager of the Argyle theatre and living in Bridge Street does not seem to fit the bill as the age is wrong. As they were 24 and 21 in 1909 when they married they can't be 30 and 28 in 1911. Also I have no knowledge of a Marjorie in the family. Later details of children in the marriage though do fit the bill strangely as my father was Gerard and I had uncles Richard, Thomas, John, Andrew and Frank (killed in WW2) and I had aunts Katherine (not mentioned) and Vera (I recall her death as a child so probably in 50's) and Joan (I never knew of her but think she may have been a child death).

These are the full marriage certificate details:
Marriage Date 19/04/1909. Groom John Keating age 24 Bachelor Occupation Letter Carrier Residence 1 Myrtle Buildings, Holly Street, Liverpool. Father’s Name: John Keating Occupation Painter (Journeyman).
Bride: Mary Flanagan age 21 Spinster Occupation Cook (Domestic) residence 4 St. Anne St. Birkenhead. Father’s Name Thomas Flanagan Occupation Marine Foreman.
Married in St. Laurence’s Church (Roman Catholic). Witnesses Thomas surname unclear but looks like Dunne and Katie Allan. Registrars G. Keegan and John Robinson.

So perhaps the one which looks most likely is the reply from Karen which has the right apparent ages and occupation of postman which fits with letter carrier. I don't recognise the child but once again I guess she could have died early on and my father never mentioned her. If you have more information on where this thread came from it would be good.

But any more help would be great.

Also I have tried to trace back to my grandmother's parent Thomas Flanagan. In the 1911 census I found an entry for a Mary Anne Flanagan (Widow) living with three other people and the address registered a 4 Stanner but I think this is a mistake and should be 4 St. Anne Street which is the address given by my grandmother on the marriage certificate. It is hard to read this on the census document but 4 Stanner sounds odd anyway.

Allan Keating

[Bertieone]

Hi Allan,

The 1911 address is indeed 4 St Anne Street, the home of Alice McGuire, nee Kelly, married Andrew McGuire, Liverpool, 1876, 8b 140.(marriage on Anc) Alice is likely to be the sister of Mary Ann Flanagan, nee Kelly, married Thomas Flanagan, Liverpool, 1883, 8b 380.

[Bertieone]

1901
RG13 P3389 F129 Page39,

4 St Anne Street,
Andrew Maguire 42, Warrington
Alice Maguire 41 Birkenhead

[Bertieone]

1891,
RG12 P2880 F50 Page42,
Wood St, Birkenhead,

Mary A Flannagan 28 married
Mary Flannagan 4
Thomas Flannagan 2

1901,
RG13 P3389 F121 Page24
Eldon Place, Birkenhead
Mary A Flanagan, Widow
Children

[Bertieone]

Assuming Thomas Flanagan, Marine Foreman/Fireman? was of similar age to Mary Ann, with no death between 1891 & 1901 standing out, it may be worth looking at a death at sea. FMP, Thomas Flanagan, born 1860, died 1894, Vessel, Norma, Archive Ref, BT 334.

[AllanKeating]

Really good stuff, thank you Bertione.

[MaryA]

Allan has sent me a private message -

Hi Mary,
You posted a possible match for John Keating and Mary Keating but the ages didn't agree with the marriage certificate I had, however later in that post you identified names as further children who I recognise as my father and uncles and aunts. Are you sure those later births are to this couple or could it be someone else with the same name and if so where can I find them.
Karen identified a match where the ages and occupation seem right but having already ordered a birth certificate for that person I find that the parents on the certifcate are clearly not right so I seem to be coming to a dead end there.

After almost a year I don't remember very much about what I posted.

Having refreshed my memory I notice I mentioned births registered in Birkenhead. All of these births are post 1912 and so the mother's maiden name is listed in the indexes, this is what has given the clue.

If you have ordered a birth certificate which came with the incorrect parents names, then you should place the order, via the GRO, and UNCHECKING whether the GRO details are known. This will enable you to enter the name with a condition that the parents names are correct.

[AllanKeating]

When I wrote my question about the birth certificate and that the "names on the certificate were clearly not right", I had got a bit mixed up with things like the maiden name of the mother (mixing the name given with the one I knew for Mary Flanagan junior). So in fact everything potentially matches except the father's christian name being shown as Patrick and not John as on the marriage certificate.
The date of birth on the birth certificate is 15/04/85 and the date of marriage is 19/04/09 with an age stated as 24 so that fits. This is the only John Keating I can find born in Liverpool in 1885 which fits and I also tried 1884 as I guess he could have been born late in that year and still been 24 on his wedding day but I can't find anything there either. Do you have any ideas?
Thanks for the advice on how to order the certificates next time. I will do that as I have a few useless ones here!!

[Bertieone]

This will help I hope, the John Keating, Music Hall manager appears to have married, Mary Callaghan, Birkenhead, 1906, 8a 1017. Snippet from a previous thread on here.

[Bertieone]

Trying to further the 1911 Jenkinson St census, posted by Karen.

1891,
RG12 P2907 F113 Page10

Henry Lowman 46
Mary E Lowman 29
John Keathing 11
Richard Lonman 6
Mary Keathing 54
Peter Keathing 35
Margaret Dann 18
Mary Dann 22

It needs looking at, rather than the transcription. The witness at the marriage, Dunne? related to Margaret and Mary perhaps.

Marriage, Henry Lowman, Mary Ellen Keeton, 1880, Liverpool, 8b 204

[Bertieone]

1881, RG11 P3632 F121 Page17

John Keating 45 Painter
Mary Keating 40
Henry Loman 36
Mary Loman 20
John Keeting 2 son