James Owen - Kirkby

[Aitcho]

As a new member (No: 8758) I would just like to say hello to everyone. I am a total novice at researching Family History and at the moment I am using Speke library to access Ancestry and Find My Past.

With Ancestry if I find anything worthwhile I can send myself an email with the relevant details and check it at home, if the library is busy the computer times out after an hour although if it is quiet one can login again.

At the moment I am stuck trying to find the marriage records for "James Owen & Margaret".

James Owen was born in 1800 and his baptism date was 11th January 1801 at the Parochial Chapel of Kirkby, Walton, Lancashire, he was the son of William Owen & Mary.

His burial at St Chad, Kirkby was on the 1st September 1843 his age was 43years 7months.

The family appear to have attended St Chad church in Kirkby as all the baptisms of the children are in the online church registers.

The 1841 Census shows his address at that time was Sandy Brow Lane, Kirkby and the members of the family are:-
James Owen 40
Margaret Owen 30
Charles Owen 11
William Owen 8
Mary Owen 6
John Owen 1

The Census does not give an individual address for the family or neighbours it just says Sandy Brow Lane. On seeing an image of the Census I noticed another Owen family and assume that they are James Owen's parents.

William Owen 80
Mary Owen 70
Margaret Owen 20

If possible I would like some guidance on how to proceed.

1). How do I find the marriage details for James Owen and Margaret, is it possible that they married at
St Chad church and that the online records are not complete?
2). Where do I look to find a record of what sort of dwelling James Owen lived in on Sandy Brow Lane?
3). I am positive that William Owen and Mary are the parents of James Owen, William Owen was born
about 1761 possibly in Lancashire or Anglesey. My dad always said that his family came from
Anglesey.

- Aitcho

[Blue70]

Hi Aitcho,

Welcome to the forum. You could take a flash drive to the library and save records to that. It's quicker and easier than sending records. Always make sure that the records are saved properly as it's annoying if you get home and find you have half an image that hasn't saved properly.


Blue

[Blue70]

I haven't been able to find a marriage I thought if they didn't marry at St Chad's they might have married at St Mary's, Walton as Kirkby was part of Walton on the Hill but no sign. You could try getting John Owen's birth certificate to get Margaret's maiden name. That might help in finding the marriage. This appears to be the birth index but to be sure with Owen being a common surname you could apply on the GRO website saying no to "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" and leaving out the volume, page and quarter information entering just year, name, Kirkby, Lancashire as place of birth and parents' names. This check method will avoid getting the wrong certificate.

Name: John Owen
Registration Year: 1839
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: West Derby
Volume: 20
Page: 838

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


Blue

[Blue70]

This is the area where the family were living in 1841:-

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebysi ... ht=BingHyb


Blue

[Aitcho]

Thanks Blue for the welcome and the tip about using a flash drive, the company I used to work for before retiring would not allow us to plug any flash drive into the company computers as they claimed it was the easiest way to pick-up a virus or transfer one to their system.

When using Ancestry in the library the email that is sent to my email account only contains a link to "My Discovery" page where I access the pages and images that I wanted saved.

With Find My Past any documents I want are sent to the libraries printer and they only charge 10p per page.

Aitcho

[Aitcho]

Hi Blue.

I will do as you advise and obtain the birth certificate for John Owen in order find the mothers surname prior to getting married, I also had a problem getting baptism information for William Owen all I could find on Ancestry was a photo image of an entry in a Christening Book for 1833. A search on Find My Past found nothing on the baptism.

The christening was performed by an Ellis Ashton, upon Googling the name it turned out that he was connected with St Chad church in Kirkby.

Perhaps there is a Marriage Book for St Chad that might contain the information that I am seeking.

Aitcho

[Aitcho]

This is the area where the family were living in 1841:-

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebysi ... ht=BingHyb


Blue

Thanks Blue for the link to the old map that is just what I was looking for.

I did use Google maps to look at the present day Sandy Brow Lane and it has hardly changed from what is shown on the old map, it is basically agricultural land.

Aitcho

[Blue70]

Lancs OPC appears to have transcripts for all the marriages at St Chad's around that time so maybe they married elsewhere:-

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Kir ... index.html


Blue

[Blue70]

Two children that were born and died in 1838 so birth and death records should be available for them:-

Baptism: 1 Mar 1838 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Betty Owen - Daughter of James Owen & Margaret
Born: 1 Mar 1838
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Cottager
Baptised by: R Cort
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1839, Page 189, Entry 1506
Source: LDS Film 1545853

Baptism: 1 Mar 1838 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Margaret Owen - Daughter of James Owen & Margaret
Born: 1 Mar 1838
Abode: Kirkby
Occupation: Cottager
Baptised by: R Cort
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1839, Page 189, Entry 1507
Source: LDS Film 1545853


Burial: 28 May 1838 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Betty Owen - Daughter of James Owen & Margaret
Age: 3 mths
Abode: Kirkby
Buried by: R Cort
Register: Burials 1813 - 1847, Page 137, Entry 1089
Source: LDS Film 1545854

Burial: 28 May 1838 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Margaret Owen - Daughter of James Owen & Margaret
Age: 3 mths
Abode: Kirkby
Buried by: R Cort
Register: Burials 1813 - 1847, Page 137, Entry 1090
Source: LDS Film 1545854



Blue

[Hilary]

I was wondering where Charles was christened as I can't see his christening in Kirkby?

I often find it is worth bringing a family forward on later census as they can often be helpful. The 1841 census doesn't give a place of birth so finding them in 1851 can be helpful.

I think I can see John and his sister Mary together in the 1851 in Knowsley and I can see a possible Charles in Knowsley as well. This Charles gives his birth place as Knowsley. Perhaps there is a family link to Knowsley.

Knowsley church didn't open until 1844/5 and was within the parish of Huyton. I'm wondering if you should look in Huyton records for the marriage? Once you have the maiden name if Margaret that would be a great help.

Huyton registers are not on Ancestry and only some early ones on lan opc. They used to be in Huyton library on film but that was some years ago.

[Blue70]

Going by Margaret Owen's death in 1845 aged 34 years old here are some Kirkby-born Margarets who would be around the right age:-

Name: Margaret Brownbill
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 13 Jan 1811
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: John Brownbill
Mother: Esther
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 12 p 1

Name: Margaret Chisnell
Gender: Female Baptism
Date: 10 Oct 1811
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: James Chisnell
Mother: Alice
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 12 p 4

Name: Margaret Harrison
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 27 Oct 1811
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: Richard Harrison
Mother: Ellen
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 12 p 4

Name: Margaret Swift
Gender: Female Baptism
Date: 24 Nov 1811
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Swift
Mother: Ellen
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 12 p 5

Name: Margaret Tyrer
Gender: Female Baptism
Date: 15 Dec 1811
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: Robert Tyrer
Mother: Mary
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 12 p 5

Name: Margaret Ashton
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 9 Jul 1809
Baptism Place: Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Father: Henry Ashton
Mother: Margaret
FHL Film Number: 1545852
Reference ID: item 11 p 97


Blue

[Aitcho]

Hi Blue,

Many thanks for all the possible leads you have provided me with!

I am printing out your postings so that I can refer back to them whilst in the library doing research.

Will also obtain death certificates for the twins Betty and Margaret Owen born 1st March 1838 and died just 3 months old.

Aitcho

[Aitcho]

Hi Helen,

The Owen family appear to be in the Kirkby, Knowsley and Liverpool areas, I have a copy of William Owen's marriage certificate (1856) which gives his residence as Dale Street here in Liverpool and 'Rank or Profession' as that of a farmer. In later years he is described as a cowkeeper.

I had no idea that Charles Owen existed so will have to look for his details.

Mary Owen I believe was married to James Rigby in Liverpool at St. James Church, Toxteth Park, Liverpool in 1858, there is a baptismal record for 1859 for a Margaret Rigby child of James Rigby & Mary which shows their abode at that time was Knowsley. The baptism took place at The Church of St Mary, Knowsley. There is also a record of Mary Rigby's second marriage.

Marriage: 4 July 1881 St Mary the Virgin, Knowsley, Lancs.
Henry Lea - full, Blacksmith, Widower, Knowsley
Mary Rigby - full, Widow, Knowsley
Groom's Father: John Lea, Nail Manufacturer
Bride's Father: James Owen, Farmer
Witness: James Cooper; Mary Cooper
Married by Licence by: William L. Fielden
Register: Marriages 1844 - 1928, Page 107, Entry 213
Source: LDS Film 1545855

Whilst checking the St Mary records I came across an interesting marriage which took place on the 8th September 1920 which could relate to the Charles Owen you have mentioned.

Marriage: 8 Sep 1920 St Mary the Virgin, Knowsley, Lancs.
James Roberts Owen - 28, Farmer, Bachelor, Sandy Brow Farm, Kirkby
Elizabeth Rushton - 23, Spinster, Knowsley
Groom's Father: Charles Owen, Farmer
Bride's Father: Edward Rushton, Forester
Witness: Ernest Davies; Edward Rushton; Emily Owen
Married by Banns by: E. Van___Fenn?, Vicar of Kirkby
Register: Marriages 1844 - 1928, Page 226, Entry 452
Source: LDS Film 1545855

The above also appears to suggest that the Owen family I am interested in possibly resided at Sandy Brow Farm, Kirkby.

Thanks for your help Helen, I intend visiting Huyton library next week to enquire where the Huyton registers are held and will report back when I find out.

Aitcho

[Hilary]

Where was William married? Please could you post full details from the certificate. Also do you have his baptism? If yes where did it take place?

PS my name is Hilary!

[Aitcho]

Hi Hilary,

My apologies for getting your name wrong! Family members are distracting me while I am trying to type messages wanting to know if I have learnt anything else.

James Owen's son William Owen was married at St John Church, Liverpool on the 4th February 1856. Details on the marriage certificate:-

Registration District: Liverpool
1856. Marriage solemnized at St John's Church in the Parish of Liverpool in the County of Lancaster
No. 317
When Married. February 4
Name and Surname. William Owen. Age 26 Batchelor. Farmer. Dale Street.
Father: James Owen. Farmer
Name and Surname. Ann Spencer. Age 25 Spinster. ------ Dale Street.
Father: John Spencer. Labourer
Witnesses: John Brown, Alice Spencer

Also found out that James Owen was one of ten children whose parents William Owen & Mary had all the children baptised at St Chad Church in Kirkby.

As regards James Owen's children I cannot find baptism records for Charles Owen, William Owen and Mary Owen, nor James Owen's marriage record, all his other children where baptised at St Chad. I am thinking that perhaps he moved away from the Kirkby area for a number of years which might explain why I cannot find the records.

[Hilary]

Many thanks for the further info.

I see that William states he was born in Knowsley on the 1861 and 1881 census and Kirkby on the 1871 and 1891. Hopefully you will find the missing baptisms at Huyton as that was the parish church for Knowsley before the church in Knowsley was built.

I see that Ann states she was born in Croxteth. Again at that time Huyton would have been the parish church for Croxteth so hopefully the marriage will be there.

Good luck

[Hilary]

On the St Chad's own website there are memorial inscriptions and photos on an attached website I think you will find it at www.cofekirkby.co.uk

James and Margaret have a gravestone it's A526

The site also has the burial register transcribed.

[Aitcho]

Thanks so much Hilary for the information you have provided and the URL link to the images and memorial inscriptions at St Chad's Church.

The website has been created by Rosalind Lloyd and is a wonderful source of information:-

http://www.cofekirkby.co.uk/rosalindllo ... index.html

I did see the photograph of the headstone for James and Margaret Owen that you mentioned and hope to visit the church in the coming weeks.

Will let you know how I get on with my searches of the Huyton Parish records.

[Aitcho]

Just an update to say that thanks to Blue and Hilary I am making some progress in tracing the marriage of James Owen.

Following Blue's advice I managed to obtain a copy of the birth certificate for James Owen (son) born 23rd December 1841 and Margaret Owen's maiden name is given as Hulm.

A few weeks ago I paid a visit to Huyton library as Hilary mentioned that they held some microfiche films relating to Huyton Parish Church (St Michaels) but unfortunately they did not have marriage records covering the period of 1821 to 1829 that I wanted to look at. I did find the baptismal record for William Owen b. 1833 so the family do have connections to the church.

I might contact the church to find out if it is possible to check their marriage records.

[MaryA]

I have often come across the name Hulm from around the Bootle area.

If you are planning to visit St Chads to see the grave it might be a good idea to contact Kirkby Library as their new archive section may have some useful resources, however it isn't a full time department and I would suggest that you give them a ring if you think of going. It's within walking distance of St Chads.