A strange brick wall !

[Alex_flynn]

This problem has puzzled me for years and I suspect I am never going to solve this mystery completely.
To keep it short as possible, this is the story so far. My great grandfather Richard Arthur Young is shown on the 1871 census as living with his widowed mother Caroline and sisters Fanny and Elizabeth in Lower Birkett St Liverpool. Birth certificates for the two girls show parents John Young and Caroline (maiden name Peter). However Richard's certificate shows John Young and Ann (maiden name Johnson) as parents.
I have traced both John Young and Caroline Peter through census records, John being a wheelwright from Bath and Caroline from Cornwall, eventually meeting and marrying in 1863 in Liverpool. It was a second marriage for John, a widower, and he was quite a few years older than Caroline, leaving some of his original family in Bath/Somerset area. Their children were Frances (Fanny) born 24 April 1864, Richard 30 December 1865 and Elizabeth 21 October 1867
John died in 1869 of Typhus in Liverpool Workhouse, but Caroline and the children appeared on the 1871 and 1881 censuses. Caroline died in 1887.
Is there any plausible explanation for this strange birth certificate? I am satisfied that I have the correct people, as the names, locations and trades fit with family knowledge. (though that has always been limited). Caroline registered the two girls' births and gave John's trade as a Journeyman Wheelwright.
Richard's certificate states that John Young is a Carter, and incidentally I have never traced a marriage between a John Young and Ann Johnson that fits the bill.
Richard had a copy of his Birth Cert. obtained in 1929 when he was 64. As far as I know he never queried it, even though it did not tally with what he later told my grandfather. In 2009 I obtained another copy of the certificate, just in case the 1929 one was a mistake, but it was identical.
Fresh eyes may see things differently. I have searched and searched for years but never reached anything like a satisfactory conclusion.

[Blue70]

H Alex

Welcome to the forum. One of my ancestors has a strange birth certificate. My one has an unexpected name for the mother, the right maiden name but the wrong first name. It should have said Alice but it says Mary Ann. Alice had a sister called Mary but not usually recorded as Mary Ann. There must have been some sort of mix-up in the birth registration and I suspect it will be similar in your case.


Blue

[Alex_flynn]

Thank you for your reply. I can only think that you could be correct, but it niggles at me endlessly ! The same registrar issued the certificates of all 3 children, so Caroline's (possible?) Cornish accent was clear enough for the girls' details. It has been suggested that a relative may have registered the birth and become flustered at the formal declaration maybe?
Don't know if that could be a possibility - not sure how they would have proceeded in those days.

[Alison C]

If it was just the mother's name that was different on the BC, then I'd think it was a mistake by the registrar but John's occupation being so different (carter vs wheelwright) makes me think its not the same John Young.

Do you know anything about John Young's first marriage? I'm wondering if Richard could be his grandson rather than his son. Given that John was born around 1809, that would give plenty of time for him to have a grandchild by 1866.

Alison

[BarbaraW]

Is Caroline, the mother, shown as the birth informant for Richard's registration?

[BarbaraW]

I was just thinking of the logistics involved in those days, wouldn't the informant have been given a copy of the birth certificate there and then? Mind you if she was illiterate it wouldn't matter what it said as she wouldn't be able to read it.

It's funny that Richard just accepted this certificate with wrong information on it as late as 1929.

[Alex_flynn]

Hello Alison and Barbara.
Caroline was not mentioned on Richard's certificate. But Caroline's father was called Arthur - so I thought Richard Arthur was called after him?
I will have to re check John Young's first family. I recall finding a Johnson somewhere, but I think they appeared to stay in the Bath/Somerset area. But I will refresh the details.
I am not sure if Caroline was illiterate. There was no X indicating it on either girls birth certs, and similarly she appeared to sign as a witness at her sister's wedding. She could, of course just have the ability to write her name.
So more questions than answers!
Thank you for your thoughts.

[BarbaraW]

The informant didn't sign the birth certificate so she may or may not have been illiterate, sorry it was just me thinking out loud!!

Who was the named informant on the certificate then?

[simone]

Hi

Was John's first wife Sarah?

Is this them in 1861?

RG 9; Piece: 2696; Folio: 11; Page: 17;
John Young 54 b Farringdon, Somerset? wheelwright
Sarah Young 50 b Poulton
Mary Young 12 b Bath

Simone x

[simone]

What happened to his daughter Ann who is 11 months on the 1851 census? (could be 4 months looking at image)
HO107; Piece: 1941; Folio: 64; Page: 20
John Young 44
Sarah Young 40
Martha Young 10
Isaac Young 8
Mary Young 2
Ann Young 11 Mo

do you think Richard could be hers and they have named her correctly on the birth cert but tried to make it all look legitimate by using grandad's name as a father? she could be a bit young though

also, Caroline had a sister called Ann, what happened to her?

sorry, prob been reading too many novels

[Alex_flynn]

Simone
Yes you have the right family.
I have come to the conclusion that anything is possible in the realm of Family History. Caroline's sister Ann married a Joseph Rushton and they were witnesses at the marriage of Cariline and John. I have not traced the missing members of John's first family - too many possibilities with the name Young at the time! I had never considered that Richard was perhaps a grandson, though I did, in desperation, consider the possibility of bigamy/illegitimacy !

Many thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

[simone]

I can see a baptism in the Liverpool records for Frances but not for Richard and Elizabeth

Frances Ann Young (liked the name Ann!)
Gender:Female
Birth Date:24 Apr 1864
Baptism Date:10 Jul 1864
Baptism Place:Saint Peter,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
Father:John Young
Mother:Caroline

[Alex_flynn]

Yes have got that baptism, thank you. They moved about a bit, so perhaps baptisms of the others are at different churches, and maybe they are missing or not indexed yet. Possible not baptised at all?

Thanks!