Missing mother on birth certificate

[JohnnyO]

Hi all, I have previously posted about trying to sort out my wife's Smith side of the family. Great fun, as you can well imagine.

Her great grandfather had 3 children. I have 2 copy birth certificates from GRO; her grandfather, mother's maiden name Alice Maud Groves. Two years later another sibling, mother's name Alice Maud Parry. Doesn't make it any easier. They are both on the 1911 census. Alice Maud born in Poplar London. There are literally hundreds of Alice Mauds born in Poplar around the birth date for her on the census. The father is shown as married to one of the Alice Mauds although he apparently never married either, and one of the Alices eloped with a lodger as he was a bit of a wife beater by all accounts. His name I think, was Clifford Walter Smith, but apparently was known to all as Walter. I'm struggling to find out much between 1911 and when he died in 1951, but hoping for help from a relative. He was supposed to live in Bootle but I can't find him on the 1939 census or any electoral registers.

That aside, the point of the post was that in 1916, there was another child born, Walter Smith. GRO has no mother on the birth certificate, so maybe Alice number 2 had done a runner, or he had another companion. If I order a copy birth certificate from GRO, presumably it will not have the mother's name on it, but still should have the father and his occupation (dock labourer)?
Time for 2 paracetamol .

Thanks, John

[Bertieone]

John,

Do you mean on the GRO site, the mothers maiden name has been left blank? which usually suggests the mothers maiden name is the same as the registered child's surname and no fathers name recorded.

[JohnnyO]

Hi Bert, yes I was meaning GRO online. Birth was registered in 1916 in West Derby so still on the website.
If no father's name is recorded, presumably it should have an address to cross reference with my records? That is if they haven't moved since the 1911 census. They lived at 20 Tyne Street, Kirkdale.
Thanks

[MaryA]

I seem to remember this question being asked recently and I gave the same response as Bert.

I would think your best bet is to check the street directories/electoral registers working forwards from the 1911 census to 1916/17 and if the same family are at the same address then order the certificate with the criteria that the address is what you expect it to be. That could save some money if that's the right answer, however the mum may have gone to a hospital or friend/relatives house to give birth, so it may not be right anyway. You should also give the first name of the mum as if that was incorrect they wouldn't issue the cert. Now is the time while the .pdf exercise is still ongoing.

[JohnnyO]

Thanks for the help. I presume that as there is no mother's name on the GRO website then neither parent will be shown on any copy certificate?

I will have to rely on double checking street names for the period. I must remember to put the details on the order form for the PDF.

[Bertieone]

John,

The mothers name will be on any birth certificate or copy certificate, it's just the GRO have chosen not to show it on their site, unlike the Free BMD below,



Births Mar 1916

Smith Walter, Smith W.Derby 8b 564

[JohnnyO]

Ah thanks Bert, I thought if it was not on the GRO website then it would not be on the certificate. Any reason why they do this?

I have had a look through the Electoral registers. I can see a Clifford and Alice Maud Smith in 1920 living in Candia Street, Kirkdale. There is also a John Southern at the same address, but no idea who he is! I cannot see any register between 1911 and then. In 1925 Clifford is still in Candia Street, but no Alice Maud. Another unknown chap is there also, Arthur Reddington. No other people at the address, so unlikely to be a lodging house. Both are still there in 1930 with Rose Reddington.

There is also an entry for 1950 in West Derby Road for George Clifford Smith, Mary Smith, Muriel E Smith (my wife's grandparents and aunt). George Smith is also living there who is my wife's uncle. No sign of Clifford though.

Wonder where Alice Maud went to after 1920?

Thanks, John

[Bertieone]

Ah thanks Bert, I thought if it was not on the GRO website then it would not be on the certificate. Any reason why they do this?

I've no idea why they do it and have never come across any official reason for doing so, we have had to work it out for ourselves that it's likely if no mothers maiden name is displayed then no husband or father is recorded.

[MaryA]

One of our members Scotchmer has more knowledge than many of us where the GRO is concerned, does confirm that the blank means no father's name shown, there will be a mother's name on a certificate.

[JohnnyO]

Thanks both for the help. Still trying to trace Clifford Smith. My wife was saying that they used to run and live above a chip shop on West Derby Road in the 1950's. Would there be any records to show who was living there? She thinks it was on the corner of Ivy Leigh.

I've been looking for old photos online, but can't see it.

Thanks again, John

[MaryA]

When it comes to photographs you could either look at the Archives where I believe the streets are indexed if there is a picture of one. Alternatively some of the Facebook Groups have members who hold a vast collection of archive pictures, some of them would be Hidden Liverpool or I Love Liverpool the City, or just enter Liverpool in the search box and a number of them come up, all worth trying.

I would expect that your first point of call to discover who was living in the premises would be to identify the exact address perhaps through street/trade directories and then on to the Electoral Registers.

[JohnnyO]

Thanks Mary. Would Crosby or Liverpool library have the trade directories for the 1950's? I will pop along there this evening. Thanks.

[Alison C]

Is this Clifford's death from FreeBMD?

Sep 1951
SMITH Clifford 80 Liverpool N. 10d 235

Could he have been in a nursing home in 1950? or perhaps just handed the reins of the fish and chip shop to George Clifford and be living elsewhere?

Alison

[JohnnyO]

Is this Clifford's death from FreeBMD?

Sep 1951
SMITH Clifford 80 Liverpool N. 10d 235

Could he have been in a nursing home in 1950? or perhaps just handed the reins of the fish and chip shop to George Clifford and be living elsewhere?

Alison

Hi Alison, yes, that's the one. I'm hopefully speaking to his granddaughter tonight and get some more info. My wife has just been to see her mum, but she did not like her granddad and has literally blanked him from her memory, which is a shame. I have the rest of the family at 290 West Derby Road in 1950. Whether Clifford was in hospital or similar, I shall have to wait and see! I can't find a Clifford Smith in 1950, and he was known as Walter, but lots of them on the 1950 Liverpool electoral rolls, so hoping the family can remember

Thanks.

[MaryA]

Definitely Liverpool will have them for West Derby Road but I don't know about the holdings of Crosby, perhaps give them a call and see if what they have covers?

[JohnnyO]

Definitely Liverpool will have them for West Derby Road but I don't know about the holdings of Crosby, perhaps give them a call and see if what they have covers?

I have just returned from Liverpool library and Margaret very kindly pointed me in the right direction of the microfiche and I found the record in about 2 minutes. It did prove that the chip shop was at 290 West Derby Road, and the owner was Mary Smith, my wife's grandmother. I was hoping it would have had her grandfather's name, but ah well, at least I know where the rest of them were . I then spent another 40 minutes talking to the people either side of me. I ran out of time as I was going to look through the Anfield cemetery records to see if he was buried there. maybe time at the weekend....

[MaryA]

It's always good fun at the RO isn't it. Glad you at least found what you wanted.

[JohnnyO]

I have just checked on the progress of my birth certificate for Walter Smith from GRO. Status says refund pending . I presume that as I stipulated the father's name as Clifford Smith and mother's forename as Alice that one of them does not match. Not having had a refund before, will they tell me what did not match the criteria? As I had to put the details in, I could not order a PDF but a full certificate.

[MaryA]

I don't believe they will tell you that, possibly they might if you telephone them, however if you ordered using the reference given, we know that there isn't a father named, it would be better if you just gave mother's name.

[JohnnyO]

Thanks Mary. I rang them this morning and left a message for a call back. I will revise the order to just ask for mother's forename of Alice and see where we go