Jane Brough, burial

[Kryzta]

I'm trying to find a burial for Jane Brough, died Apr-May-Jun 1880, aged 5 years.

I've tryed all the sites I can think of, and the ones Mary suggested, and i'm finding nothing.

Can anyone help?

GRO
BROUGH, JANE 5
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 262

[MaryA]

Can you list those Cemeteries you have tried so that there is no duplication and we can consider what is left.

[Kryzta]

Pretty much all of them on here that cover 1880 (The Anfield one was hard, so many with ages of hours to months old)
https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... 43&t=15479

Ancestry, Find my past and Familysearch only have her death.
Nothing on LOPC and LancsBMD.

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/Mersey ... yards.html
burials and newspapers for 1880.

I'm out of ideas of where else to look.

[Blue70]

St Mary's Cemetery Kirkdale (now landscaped unfortunately)






Image available to download free from here:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=396903


A transcript available here:-

http://toxtethparkcemetery.co.uk/St%20M ... 201880.htm



Blue

[Kryzta]

Thanks Blue70!

Where did you find that?

Happy dance time, that's just confirmed John and Hugh are the same guy!!

[Blue70]

A bit of detective work. I looked up the baptism to see if there was an address. There was - McKee Street. Then started thinking about where someone living around there would bury a child. St Mary's Cemetery is down the road. I should have looked it up on the transcript site I mentioned in my post but instead I went straight to the images for the cemetery on Family Search and found it there. The link to these images is on the forum here it is again:-

St. Mary's Cemetery Kirkdale, burial registers, day book and register of claimants

https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library


Blue

[daggers]

If there is a Sherlock award I will nominate Blue70, as an ace sleuth
D

[Kryzta]

I've been trying to find something for a few years now that would tell me one way or the other if John and Hugh were the same guy, or 2 guys. Then the other day I noticed Jane's baptism had her mother as Eliza Ellen, and dad John, everything else had either John/Hugh and Eliza, except for their second marriage (still don't know why they married twice).
I have them on the 1881 census living at Beatrice Street, as Hugh and Eliza, so Janes burital confirms it's the same guy.

They had 2 other kids who died, 1848/1850, (don't know which is the right one, yet) and 1851, who i've not found burials for yet. Family search only has them years at a family history centre. Do you know if they'd be on microfilm at Central Library?

I'll agree with you on that daggers.

Edit, used the Toxteth site, found Thomas, so I know which is the right one.

[Bertieone]

Signatures look different,

have you checked out brotherly love?

[Kryzta]

I've looked at that, i've also drove people crackers looking into this (Ask Mary and Kathy). It's all really confusing.
On the Hugh and Eliza marriage, Eliza is down as living at Burlington Street, there's no Eliza Clough living at Burlington Street in 1851.
I have their son Williams sig on 3 different things, they all look different.
1851-1871 census John is born in different places, and different years, so I can't pin him down, and can't find a John with James as dad that fits.
On them census, Eliza and kids info matches. 1881-1891, Hugh is born in Scotland, I have his bap. Eliza died on the IOM in 1885, Hugh died in St Helens Dec 1901/Jan 1902 (buried 4 Jan 1902).
1851-1871 I can't find a Hugh, born 1822 Scotland, 1881-1891 I can't find John.
There's 3 Hugh's born round 1822, 2 I can follow from birth to death, guess which one I can't.
When son's William and John married, they both put John as dad, but the only births/baps that show up, have Hugh as dad, all the other kids have Hugh.
I took all the stuff I had to the help desk, and had a good chat with Joyce, we both said it looked like John and Hugh was the same guy, I just needed something to confirm it, which I think Jane's burial does.
Family trees on Ancestry have John/Hugh, noone has been able/or willing to work it out. So untill someone finds something to say otherwise, i'm happy to say John and Hugh are the same guy.

As for any siblings of Hugh's, no idea. I have his baptism, parents are James Brough and Jean McEwing, can't find a marriage for them. Someone had James being born in Broughton in Furness, to Hugh and Isabel. But, I haven't really looked into them.

One thing does stil niggle, the name Hugh hasn't come down, which I find weird, as at least one kid tends to be named after a parent, or a grandkid.

[Bertieone]

Signatures are confusing, whether someone's handwriting can change as much in 5 years, don't know.
As you say, why marry twice?
Filed under strange.

[Kryzta]

I have 3 signatures of their son William, from his 2 marrages, and as witness on his brother John's marriage, all 3 are different.

I'm looking at Eliza's ages from census, they don't add up, but going off her death age, 56 in 1885, that puts her at 17 on the 1846 marriage, even though it says full on the marriage. So it could be her parents didn't want her to marry, so they married under one name, then remarried with correct names when she was 21.
I've not found a death for a John between the marriage dates, but if he had died, why is he on the census.

I don't know about filing under strange, more like OMG this is doing my head in, i'm gonna end up in Winwick

[Bertieone]

The family must have liked wedding cake,

It appears William married the same girl twice, Catherine Bolderson/Boldenson, Widow.

1882, St George
1891 St Peter

[Bertieone]

Marriages,

75, 82, 91

[Kryzta]

I've got the Elizabeth Ann Phillips marriage, not found her death, William is back with parents on the 1881 census.
Got his first marriage to Catherine, didn't know about the second one.

This lot just gets weirder and weirder

[Bertieone]

The likely death,

Elizabeth Brough,
March Qtr, 1880,
Liverpool 8b 36,
Age 29.

Still struggling to convince myself the signatures above are done by the same hand and they change with the fathers names.

1875, Father, John
1882/91 Father, Hugh.


reaching for the pills

[Bertieone]

Image of William Brough signatures as witness to John Brough, 1877 and Mary Brough, 1889 marriages

John Brough 1877, father John
Mary Brough, 1889, father Hugh

[Kryzta]

I've been trying to work this out for about 7 years now, I'm passed the pills, I have padded walls

They didn't do a lot of writing back then, if they were lucky enough to be able to write, so that could account for his sig's being different.

This is what made me start to think John/Hugh was the same guy, his son John's funeral.
Taken from Newton, Earlestown and Golborne Guardian, Friday 23 Aug 1935

The death took place on Friday last, of Mr John Brough, of 31 Maple Ave, Wargrave, Newton-le-Willows, at the age of 79 years.
The funeral took place on Wednesday at Christ Church Cemeterys, Eccleston, St Helens.
Mourners were. Mr W Brough, Mr E Haycock, Mr J Brough, Mrs A Rigby, Mr T Johnson, Mrs E Kewin, Mrs A Owens, Mrs D Fee, Miss A Brough, Mr J Brough, Mr W Brough, Mr J Brough, Mr E Kewin, Mr E Owens, Mr J Rigby, Mrs Goodier, Mrs Stonier, Mrs Malone.
Floral tributes were sent by, Mrs Kewin (sister), Mrs Rigby (daughter), Mrs Owens and Mrs Fee, Mr Adams, Mrs Goodier and daughter, Neighbours.
the funeral arrangements were carried out by Mr T Woods, junr.

I know Eliza's dad (Mrs Kewin) was Hugh. (John's son married Margaret Elleanor Kewin, Eliza married Margaret's older brother)
The only problem I have with this, John was my nan's grandad, she isn't on it, she had a young baby, so wouldn't have been able to go, but knowing my nan, she would have sent something.

[Pegasus]

I can not see that much difference in those 2 sigs?

Most of the letters are almost identical?

P.S.

I have many sigs of my ancestors going over 5 generations and some would think they were all signed by the same man.

[Bertieone]

I'm not leaning one way or the other concerning the outcome previously arrived at.

The suspicion in the signatures, from the capitals, "W" & "B"