Search for Great Grandmother b. Liverpool

[Peggy T]

Hello,
I am searching for any information on my Great Grandmother, Harriet Manger, born 1847 in Liverpool. She is on 5 censuses in the US beginning 1870. She indicates she was born in England however her parents are sometime listed as born in Germany and on other census, state born in England. The surname Manger seems to be used in both England and Germany and is frequently misspelled or spelled with variations such as Monger. My Aunt said that she was from Liverpool, however all the 'Harriet Mangers' on Ancestry.com have been ruled out as being her. She is the only one of my 8 great grandparents that I have 'hit the brick wall' on. It's been a very long and frustrating search. If you can point me to any sources that might be useful that would be great. Also, if there are local genealogists that might be interested, am willing to hire for research assistance. I have not been able to locate any immigration, birth or baptism records for her in order to identify her parents. Her first US census in 1870 places her in New Orleans, Louisiana as a seamstress. Her parents names are not listed on the marriage certificate or any other document that I have. My Ancestry tree is public (Maher-Dexter tree). She is on 5 census: 1870, 1880, 1900, 1910 and 1920. I even have her prayer book which has no hints of her childhood. It's like she dropped out of the sky and landed on the 1870 census with absolutely no records prior to that. I'm wondering what circumstances might have caused her to not be picked up on tha 1850 or 1860 census is she was still in England (war, her parents were poor servants and not counted?). I have tried searches on all her name variations as well with no luck. Thanks, Peggy

[Blue70]

Welcome Peggy. I'm struggling to find Harriett on the US census records can you give us more details about the records you have found her on such as the spelling of her name on each census, age, place of birth, where she was living, names of other people in the household etc I usually look at the US records on Family Search then work back and try to find them on the English records.

Thanks,

Blue

[Bertieone]

Blue,

Found a tree on Anc, might be Peggy's,

1870,
Harriet Mangel, Bn 1846, England,
New Orleans, ward 3, Louisiana,

Year: 1870; Census Place: New Orleans Ward 3, Orleans, Louisiana; Roll: M593_520; Page: 464A; Family History Library Film: 552019

Married, 1872, Michael Dwyer.

Peggy,
Any parents names on the marriage cert?

[MaryA]

Welcome to the forum Peggy and thank you lads for doing your usual great stuff and jumping in with results and questions. Just to let you know that Peggy emailed to the Society with her queries and I had no hesitation in recommending the forum because of the help that is always given so willingly by you all. Thanks.

[MaryA]

Doing a similar name search in the birth indexes I have come across this entry that could be kept on file to see what transpires.

Births Sep 1847
Mansell Harriett Liverpool 20 367

The mother's maiden name is McGowan. I wonder whether Peggy has come across this name in any of her searches so far?

[Bertieone]

Family search,

Death,

Hattie Dwyer, 1920, Texas.

I know some death certs (USA) have the parents names on them, have you had sight of Hattie's?

[Blue70]

This is not much help unfortunately:-

Registration Record of Deaths in the City of San Antonio, Texas

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1461894

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1461894

[To continue the entry on the second image it starts, "Ret Housewife / Senility" ...]


Blue

[Peggy T]

Welcome Peggy. I'm struggling to find Harriett on the US census records can you give us more details about the records you have found her on such as the spelling of her name on each census, age, place of birth, where she was living, names of other people in the household etc I usually look at the US records on Family Search then work back and try to find them on the English records.

Thanks,

Blue

Thanks for your response. In 1870, she is listed as Harriet Manger...you can see on my Ancestry public tree: Maher-Dexter tree. After 1870 she is listed by her married name Harriet Dwyer (husband Michael Dwyer). I haven't found an immigration record for her or anything prior to the 1870 census. It's as if she dropped out of the sky. Forgot to mention that I did hire Ancestry.com genealogists to research her. They did out rule all (9 I believe) Harriet Manger's born in England around 1847 if indeed the spelling was Manger. Perhaps it was a different spelling. What was life like in Liverpool in 1847? Was there war or poverty that may have caused a loss of records? Maybe it was burned in a fire.

[Peggy T]

This is not much help unfortunately:-

Registration Record of Deaths in the City of San Antonio, Texas

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1461894

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1461894

[To continue the entry on the second image it starts, "Ret Housewife / Senility" ...]


Blue

Yes, thanks I have her death certificate and all documents In US from 1870 forward. It appears that the informant (her son-in-law) did not know anything about her parents or birth place. Hoping to find her birth or baptism record and 1850 / 1860 census. I haven't yet been able to determine if she grew up in England and immigrated to the states close to 1870 or if she immigrated as a baby or child and therefore must have grown up in the states. Can't find anything prior to 1870. Very frustrating. Her occupation at 24 yrs was a seamstress so she must have learned to sew somewhere. Her handwriting in her prayer book is lovely so I believe she must have received at least a basic education. Is it possible she was an orphan growing up in an institution that did not show on the census? Strange indeed.

[Peggy T]

Blue,

Found a tree on Anc, might be Peggy's,

1870,
Harriet Mangel, Bn 1846, England,
New Orleans, ward 3, Louisiana,

Year: 1870; Census Place: New Orleans Ward 3, Orleans, Louisiana; Roll: M593_520; Page: 464A; Family History Library Film: 552019

Married, 1872, Michael Dwyer.

Peggy,
Any parents names on the marriage cert?

No unfortunately only her name is listed. Thanks for your response.

[Peggy T]

Welcome to the forum Peggy and thank you lads for doing your usual great stuff and jumping in with results and questions. Just to let you know that Peggy emailed to the Society with her queries and I had no hesitation in recommending the forum because of the help that is always given so willingly by you all. Thanks.

Yes, thanks so much for your kind responses. And I love hearing your local expressions 'lads'. I visited London many years ago but long overdue to return...I now want to visit Liverpool. The city looks amazing and I remain hopeful that I will find some shred of information on Harriett Manger.

[Peggy T]

Doing a similar name search in the birth indexes I have come across this entry that could be kept on file to see what transpires.

Births Sep 1847
Mansell Harriett Liverpool 20 367

The mother's maiden name is McGowan. I wonder whether Peggy has come across this name in any of her searches so far?

Thanks Mary, this is very intriguing. No, haven't seen the name Mansell listed as a variation. At least the location and year are right. I looked at the record on Family Search and Ancestry and did not see the mother's maiden name on either. Can you give me the link to this record or description of source? Thanks very much.

[MaryA]

The reason I wonder about a mis-spelling is because in the years we are looking at the indexes are hand-written, this may have been misread from the original which could well have been spelled correctly. It's possible that the original registrations at Liverpool Register Office may have a better entry, however there is no trace of either name on http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php which is however a volunteer transcription site and may not be complete for the area. You could try approaching the Register Office directly https://liverpool.gov.uk/births-marriage-deaths/

The only site that gives the mother's maiden name for prior to 1911 is https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ which is also the cheapest place to purchase certificates, especially if you discover a birth/death in their early records, you can choose to order a .pdf file which is the cheapest, you will need to open an account with this site to use it, but this is free to do.

[Peggy T]

The reason I wonder about a mis-spelling is because in the years we are looking at the indexes are hand-written, this may have been misread from the original which could well have been spelled correctly. It's possible that the original registrations at Liverpool Register Office may have a better entry, however there is no trace of either name on http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php which is however a volunteer transcription site and may not be complete for the area. You could try approaching the Register Office directly https://liverpool.gov.uk/births-marriage-deaths/

The only site that gives the mother's maiden name for prior to 1911 is https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ which is also the cheapest place to purchase certificates, especially if you discover a birth/death in their early records, you can choose to order a .pdf file which is the cheapest, you will need to open an account with this site to use it, but this is free to do.

Thanks Mary, I will look into this. Am assuming that you saw the McGowan name there. It's as if 24 years of her life are completely missing. My Mother passed away in 2000. She was 8 when Harriet and Mike came to live with the family in their final year. If only I could ask her some questions about this, might have found a hint.

[MaryA]

The problem that we have found in the past is that the birth may have been registered in a name that you don't expect ie mother's name, so no father named. This often causes us headaches, but sometimes they have been overcome.

[Peggy T]

The problem that we have found in the past is that the birth may have been registered in a name that you don't expect ie mother's name, so no father named. This often causes us headaches, but sometimes they have been overcome.

Yes, that would certainly seem a possibility. Perhaps Manger was her Mother's maiden name and not the father's name. If she gave the name in 1870 to the US census taker then she was going by that name at the time. Seems like she would be listed on either UK or US census with the name Manger in 1850/51 and in 1860/61 unless she literally changed the name for some unknown reason. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[Peggy T]

The problem that we have found in the past is that the birth may have been registered in a name that you don't expect ie mother's name, so no father named. This often causes us headaches, but sometimes they have been overcome.

Yes, that would certainly seem a possibility. Perhaps Manger was her Mother's maiden name and not the father's name. If she gave the name in 1870 to the US census taker then she was going by that name at the time. Seems like she would be listed on either UK or US census with the name Manger in 1850/51 and in 1860/61 unless she literally changed the name for some unknown reason. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Also, I have had my DNA done on 23 and Me, as well as Ancestry. There are some Mangers but haven't found a connection yet. Most members do not have info that far back in their trees, unfortunately.

[MaryA]

I think you need to also think about whether she took a stepfather's name.

[Peggy T]

I think you need to also think about whether she took a stepfather's name.

Yes, that would seem a distinct possibility. Just not sure how I can have a way to identify the real 'her' since all I really know is the first name (assuming she took someone else's surname) and even the first name Harriett might not have been the name on the certificate. Some of them dropped the use of the birth first name and went by the middle name or something else. Thanks again for your great suggestions. So frustrating...

[Kryzta]

Have you looked at immigration to Canada, then crossing from Canada to the States?