Burns

[BUrnsHoy]

I have been trying to find the movements of our ancestor Henry Burns.
We have a suspect birth cert which puts his birth at 14th Nov 1856 Everton Liverpool.Address is 8 Tenterden St,i have had a census of Tenterden str for 1861 in vane hope that the family would be found, but sadly no.
Cannot find a marriage for the parents on the birth cert.and family do not know of any other family members related to him.
Henry,s life can be traced from 1881 where he can be found as a lodger and a Bootlaster.
This proffesion became his buisness and became the "Cobbler Poet" of Kensington.
Everyday he wrote a poem and put on his shop door for all to read.
He published two poetry books,alas if only we could find more information.
I have read the books so many times in hope of finding a clue.
Has anyone found any information on a Henry Burns possible parents PAtrick Burns occupation Shipwright, mother Mary Ann Woods.
Henry named one of his sons with a middle name of Woods, but his marriage cert gives his fathers name as JAmes, could James be his Brother or his grandfather?
Any help after 20 years of trying everything to find this elusive gent and his family would be a help

[dickiesam]

Hello and welcome!
So the good folk on this forum don't have to trawl the censuses for background info on Henry, could you please post the census page references where you are sure you have found him and his family from 1861 onwards?

Whom, when and where did Henry marry? When did he die? Every scrap of info helps because there are a lot of 'minds' here that can think around corners as well as 'outside the box'.

Cheers,
Dickiesam

[BUrnsHoy]

Hello,

Thankyou for sending a reply apologies for not sending enough info.
Here to add to what you need

Marriage 16th April 1881 Paddington
Spouse Phoebe Elizabeth Gomm

Death of Henry 13 January 1939 Kensington

As i have just moved census records are still boxed but will unearth and send you this asap.

Only have records from 1881 nothing can be found on him further back.

I have tried all the orphanges wrote letters to Barnados whom very kindly send me a list of all establishments.
No joy. I tried to find him though his trade trying to find out where he didi perhaps an aprrenticeship no luck.
Will get back to you soon with extra information

D

[simone]

here he is 1881 lodging in Paddington, London
RG11; Piece: 6; Folio: 26; Page: 19

Susannah Butler 54
Arthur Butler 22
Walter Butler 20
Henry Burns 23 lodger b Liverpool - Boot Lester?
Henry J. Denne 27

Simone x

[simone]

1891 still in London
RG12; Piece: 27; Folio 44; Page 1

a correction has been made on Anc* to the name Barns by a lady who has her trees on there

Henry Barus 33 b Liverpool, Bootmaker-
Phoebe E Barus 29
Frederick H Barus 8
Walter Thomas Barus 7
Francis Ernest Barus 2
Pheobe E Barus 1


1901

RG13; Piece: 29; Folio: 115; Page: 9.
Henry Burns 43 bootmaker
Phebe E Burns 39
Fredk H Burns 18
Walter T Burns 19
Francis E Burns 12
Phebe E Burns 11
Augustus Burns 7
Lilian Burns 5
Stanley W Burns 3
Elsie Burns 1


Simone x

[simone]

there is also someone on Anc* who has Henry born Ireland.... no parents though.

another has him, like you, born Liverpool, father James.

[dickiesam]

HI,
FreeBMD shows only 4 possibles for Henry Burns births between 1856 and 1860 [I always take ages at census time with a small pinch of salt!].

If his marriage cert says his father was James, then I would say that is correct.

Dickiesam

[dickiesam]

Hi Simone,
RE:

a correction has been made on Anc* to the name Barns by a lady who has her trees on there

That sort of 'correction' really worries me! There doesn't appear to be any backing documentation for it. Even Henry's marriage is shown as Burns. And for BurnsHoy it is probably 'pinch of salt time'. That correction should be queried.

Dickiesam

[BUrnsHoy]

Hello Simone and Dickiesam,


Thankyou for your help,

I am concerned as you as to the Ancestry input, and as i do not subscribe to this site makes me wonder even more to whom the tree belongs.
If it is an entry made by Ancestry surely this leaves the creditibility of accuracy in question.

I have been querying the fatherhood of Henry for so long.The birth cert that is held was a copy obtained by a member of the family in 193? from Somerset House.
Henry named one of his sons Stanley with middle name of WOODS.This is the only one with this in their name.
There is a family bible and Henry's birth date has been changed unfortunately it is not clear as to what was originally put in. The date on the cert held has been put in place.

I plummed for the fathers name as James but could not find a birth that would match father and date line, within reason.

Henry is my husbands G grandfather, my husband was baptised with Burns as his middle name.The spelling was as his G grandfather always spelt his name.

D

[BUrnsHoy]

Hi

The 1861 census which i had obtained from Liverpool Records Office, was done via the address, this being 8, Tenterden Street. Liverpool.
This is te address given on the suspect birth cert.

This took 7 weeks to obtain due to the fact that they insisted that this address did not exist!!

This address which i cannot give you any refs for at present, is in fact an Ale house.With lodgers by the many but not a BURNS in sight.

D

[Tina]

Hi D
Sorry nothing in 1853 Directory for James Burns.
There is a birth W Dby rego for Henry Burns 1858 march qtr
Every census gives this as his birth year.
This birth is possibly the son of Robt & Sarah who live in Tox Park.
A toughie for sure.

Tina

[dickiesam]

Hi D,
Been mulling over the tidbits in your last post and doing a little theorising!

You mention the change of birth date for Henry in the family bible to that on the birth cert from the 1930s. Personally, I would say that the original date was the correct one if only because it is in the bible. That birth cert showing his parents as Patrick and Mary Ann Burns (nee Woods) may be correct but then there's the problem of being unable to find the family in 1861.

Assuming that birth cert is the correct one, because Henry refers to his father as James on his marriage cert I am wondering if Henry was 'taken in' or fostered/raised by another family the head of which was a James, who became the only father that Henry knew?

The fostering would may have been unofficial for all intents and purposes, although there were provisions for families to be paid a small sum every week to take in a child and keep him/her out of the workhouse. Proper formal 'adoptions' did not exist then. Because he retained the name Burns it is possible that James was a Burns and in later life Henry was told his background and that his mother was a Woods.

Incidentally, FreeBMD shows 7 deaths of a Mary Ann Burns in Liverpool between 1854 and 1861. On the same tack there are 3 deaths of a Henry Burns in the same period, so that birth cert may not be the correct one unless you can eliminate these 3 deaths.

Are there any other family names and dates in that bible showing siblings or other relatives that we might find? Are there any 'memories' of why that 1930s birth cert was obtained? Was there any significant event in the family around that time?

In order for Henry to become a boot laster [making exact replicas, known as lasts, of a client's foot on which a boot would be put together] he would have to be apprenticed or trained in that trade. He should be in the 1871 as an apprentice to a shoe and boot-maker. 'High class' boot-makers would have had lasts made for individual discerning clients.

Dickiesam

PS: Somerset House was the only place you could obtain copies of BMDs back in the 30s.

[Gray]

Hi D,

As Tina says certainly a toughie.

Have found a possible Henry Burns parents Pat/Mary.
This is not on the usual IGI site but on the trial site. Unfortunately it does not give the occupation of the father.


Name: Henry Burns
Gender: Male
Bapt/Christening date: 14/12/1856
Bapt/Christening place: St. Anthony's L.pool
Birthdate: 8/11/1856
Father's Name: Pat Burns
Mother's Name: Mary
Indexing Project No:(BatchNo) CO2168-3
System Origin: England - EAsy
Source Film No: 396380
Ref No: Yr 1856-1857



Gray

[BUrnsHoy]

Hello All,

The answer to the bible is no other burns other than his children have been entered.This was a family bible owned by the Gomm family and handed to the spouse on marriage.

The change of birth date i am going to photograph and put on a scanner to try to see if i can bring out the date this way.

The baptism i am extremely interested in and would love to get a copy.
Can you give me a contact number for obtaining this.Does this baptism give an address?

Thanks to everyone for helping me, as for his trade i tried the guild but they told me that no records were kept for his aprenticeship years.

D

[Gray]

Hi D,

Sorry, no address listed.

Not sure if you can obtain copies, possibly someone else may know?
Failing that, you could try your local Family History Centre to ask advice.

Best of luck,

Gray

[Hilary]

St Anthony's Registers are as far as I know on film at Liverpool record Office so you could get a copy of the baptism from them.

I think you should widen your search to look for a Henry Burn, Byrne or Byrnes as at the time many people could not read and write and there was far more variation in spelling.

In case you are not aware of it the majority of public libraries in the UK offer free access to Ancestry Library Edition.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[dickiesam]

Hi D,
Seeing as how I couldn't find a reasonable candidate for Henry prior to 1881, I decided to look for the father on that birth cert, Patrick Burns - shipwright. No luck in 1861 and 1871 but there's this in 1881, the only hit from all counties. His wife Catherine is 10 years younger than him so it is possible she is his second wife. There are a number of P B marriage hits in Liverpool on FreeBMD where a Catherine is also shown. In the absence of a possible candidate in the 1871, Catherine may have also married twice.

BURNS, Patrick - Married - 50 - 1831 - Shipwright - Dublin, Ireland.
BURNS, Catherine - Wife - 40 - 1841 - Shipwrights Wife - Liverpool.
Address: 40 Caryl St, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG11 / Piece: 3634 / Folio: 100 / Page: 52.

Dickiesam

[Gray]

After googling, found below.
Looks like on going project but worth a look. May strike lucky!

http://stanthonys-liverpool.com/general/aboutus.php


Gray

[Gray]

Possibilities!! for Henry 1861 & 1871 census. The birth years are slightly out but we all know that is very common.

Would appreciate 2nd opinions though.


1861: RG9 Piece 268 Folio 112 Page 2 GSU542603

Henry Burns (certainly says this on image)
Est. birth year: abt 1858
Relation: INMATE
Birthplace: UNKNOWN
Address: Unknown Workhouse Stepney Middlesex
Registration district: Whitechapel.

Unfortunately this little Henry is on his own, no other Burns family with him?


1871: RG10 Piece 347 Folio 26 Page 54 GSU 824607

Henry Burns
Est. birth year: abt 1853 lodger/single
Birthplace: St Pancras Middlesex (depends who filled the census form)?
Occ: I just cannot read it looks like La?(could this be LAST)? Opinions please.

address: 2 Kennedy st;? St Giles in the Fields London
There appear to be c 25 boarders here, could not see any other Burns listed.

I may be way off beam here but could not let it pass

Gray

[simone]

Hi D,
Seeing as how I couldn't find a reasonable candidate for Henry prior to 1881, I decided to look for the father on that birth cert, Patrick Burns - shipwright. No luck in 1861 and 1871 but there's this in 1881, the only hit from all counties. His wife Catherine is 10 years younger than him so it is possible she is his second wife. There are a number of P B marriage hits in Liverpool on FreeBMD where a Catherine is also shown. In the absence of a possible candidate in the 1871, Catherine may have also married twice.

BURNS, Patrick - Married - 50 - 1831 - Shipwright - Dublin, Ireland.
BURNS, Catherine - Wife - 40 - 1841 - Shipwrights Wife - Liverpool.
Address: 40 Caryl St, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG11 / Piece: 3634 / Folio: 100 / Page: 52.

Dickiesam

just noticed this address on toxteh park cem website, obviously no clue if connected at all

BURNS James ,53 years, Labourer 11 Caryl Street
28 October 1911
5260 104854 C F Left 501 352 CEM 9/1/21

similar age to Henry. poss brother


also

BURNS Patrick Henry, 70 years - Workhouse Toxteth Park,
25 September 1900 -
4333 86362 C 13 267 352 CEM 9/1/18

Simone x