An ancestor, Henry Ashcroft Potter, had a “seat” at Penketh Hall.
Can you please tell me what a “seat” meant and where and what Penketh Hall was.
Also, Henry was a man of independent means, born circa 1776 but I am unable to find any details of his birth or ancestors. He married Elizabeth Tennant in 1796 (All Saints Childwall) and died 7th March 1860.
Any information would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Bob Connell
Sydney
Australia
Henry Ashcroft Potter
Family seat & Penketh Hall
Hello Bob,
The word 'seat' is an ancient one in that context and it meant the family home and estate.
More about Penketh and Penketh Hall here: http://www.penketh.com/hist.html
I assume you have Henry in the 1841 and 1851 censuses?
Compliments of the season...
DS
The word 'seat' is an ancient one in that context and it meant the family home and estate.
More about Penketh and Penketh Hall here: http://www.penketh.com/hist.html
I assume you have Henry in the 1841 and 1851 censuses?
Compliments of the season...
DS
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Hello Bob
There are several websites available through Google which mention Penketh Hall, which appears to have survived. This one has a picture:
http://www.penketh.com/sight.html
A 'seat' was a large house where a gentleman of means lived, usually in the country, with a large estate and possibly tenant farmers.
In the 1851 census he was about a half-mile from where I live now! If you have access to it, the reference is HO107, piece 2192, fo 1157, page 11. He is at Russell Cottage, Baileys Lane, Aigburth. It was then fairly rural but is now part of suburban Liverpool. Bailey's Lane became either Barkhill Road or Mersey Road. His wife and two very grownup unmarried daughters were present, and he is described as 'land owner'.
I shall look for my early map later,to see if the cottage is marked.
It looks like him in the 1841 census at Finch Street, Liverpool, occupation 'Ind' [independent means], with wife, 2 daughters and a son Thomas. Ref: HO107 piece558, fo 2/22, page 37. The street does not exist now, but may be traceable.
Perhaps more info to come, and others will join in helping, I'm sure.
Daggers
ADDED: too slow off the mark!
Using Henry's full names on Google I found this in a site dedicated to a history of Childwall Church:
"Tablet (on pillar) to Thos., s. of Henry Potter of
Penketh Hall [Wavertree], graduate of St. John's,
Cambridge, d. 1727, aged 24, and several members
of same family ; erected by Henry Ashcroft Potter,
July 1856. "
Correction: Penketh Hall which I referred to above is not the right one. The one in Wavertree stood on Smithdown Road, close to the bridge under the Liverpool/London main railway line near Garmoyle Road. Around 1905 it was occupied by "Henry W Gair esq, JP" but was probably demolished soon afterwards.
D
There are several websites available through Google which mention Penketh Hall, which appears to have survived. This one has a picture:
http://www.penketh.com/sight.html
A 'seat' was a large house where a gentleman of means lived, usually in the country, with a large estate and possibly tenant farmers.
In the 1851 census he was about a half-mile from where I live now! If you have access to it, the reference is HO107, piece 2192, fo 1157, page 11. He is at Russell Cottage, Baileys Lane, Aigburth. It was then fairly rural but is now part of suburban Liverpool. Bailey's Lane became either Barkhill Road or Mersey Road. His wife and two very grownup unmarried daughters were present, and he is described as 'land owner'.
I shall look for my early map later,to see if the cottage is marked.
It looks like him in the 1841 census at Finch Street, Liverpool, occupation 'Ind' [independent means], with wife, 2 daughters and a son Thomas. Ref: HO107 piece558, fo 2/22, page 37. The street does not exist now, but may be traceable.
Perhaps more info to come, and others will join in helping, I'm sure.
Daggers
ADDED: too slow off the mark!
Using Henry's full names on Google I found this in a site dedicated to a history of Childwall Church:
"Tablet (on pillar) to Thos., s. of Henry Potter of
Penketh Hall [Wavertree], graduate of St. John's,
Cambridge, d. 1727, aged 24, and several members
of same family ; erected by Henry Ashcroft Potter,
July 1856. "
Correction: Penketh Hall which I referred to above is not the right one. The one in Wavertree stood on Smithdown Road, close to the bridge under the Liverpool/London main railway line near Garmoyle Road. Around 1905 it was occupied by "Henry W Gair esq, JP" but was probably demolished soon afterwards.
D
Last edited by daggers on 19 Dec 2011 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
M. no. 31
Penketh Hall
The Hall is apparently a Listed Building but unfortunately Google StreetView doesn't cover it.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk ... enketh/map
There's a better satellite view with Bingmap. The Hall is a couple of hundred yards south east of Manston Road, almost dwarfed by industrial buildings.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk ... th/bingmap
DS
EDIT TO ADD: Oh flip! Wrong Penketh Hall! Good find Daggers.... the Wavertree one. Bit of a pretentious name though for Smithdown Road?
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk ... enketh/map
There's a better satellite view with Bingmap. The Hall is a couple of hundred yards south east of Manston Road, almost dwarfed by industrial buildings.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk ... th/bingmap
DS
EDIT TO ADD: Oh flip! Wrong Penketh Hall! Good find Daggers.... the Wavertree one. Bit of a pretentious name though for Smithdown Road?
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
I think the Hall had been there a long time before Smithdown Road was built up.
Yes, just found the 1st edition OS map [1850] and there were few dwellings around. The Brook House pub [on an earlier site than the present one], the Rathbone family's Greenbank and a few others, but only the odd cottage along Smithdown Road.
There are some early references to Penketh Hall which I shall try to copy here. Any suggestions on pictures?
D
ADDED: Russell Cottage is not shown on the 1850 map, but only larger dwellings are named.
Yes, just found the 1st edition OS map [1850] and there were few dwellings around. The Brook House pub [on an earlier site than the present one], the Rathbone family's Greenbank and a few others, but only the odd cottage along Smithdown Road.
There are some early references to Penketh Hall which I shall try to copy here. Any suggestions on pictures?
D
ADDED: Russell Cottage is not shown on the 1850 map, but only larger dwellings are named.
Last edited by daggers on 19 Dec 2011 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
M. no. 31
A bit more, from the Liverpool Record Office catalogue:
"RefNo 282 MAR/8/1
Title Will (copy) of Thomas Tennant of Childwall, yeoman, dated 9 Sep 1789, with codicil, provided at Chester, 28 February 1791
Date 1789, 1791
Description Bequeths personal items to sister Margaret Low and her son Richard, and remainder of estate to daughter Elizabeth Tennant, including lands in Childwall and Much Woolton, charged with annuity of ?12 to wife while single
Residuary legatees, nephews Thomas Woods of Penketh, brewer, and Richard Low, and niece Margaret Low
Executors: wife and friend James Okill of Lee in Little Woolton
Codicil granting annuity of ?5 to sister Margaret Low
Extent 1 document "
D
"RefNo 282 MAR/8/1
Title Will (copy) of Thomas Tennant of Childwall, yeoman, dated 9 Sep 1789, with codicil, provided at Chester, 28 February 1791
Date 1789, 1791
Description Bequeths personal items to sister Margaret Low and her son Richard, and remainder of estate to daughter Elizabeth Tennant, including lands in Childwall and Much Woolton, charged with annuity of ?12 to wife while single
Residuary legatees, nephews Thomas Woods of Penketh, brewer, and Richard Low, and niece Margaret Low
Executors: wife and friend James Okill of Lee in Little Woolton
Codicil granting annuity of ?5 to sister Margaret Low
Extent 1 document "
D
M. no. 31
So far I haven't found anything. I'd say there probably is a painting of the Hall, as was the practice of the landed gentry back then, but zilch so far.Any suggestions on pictures?
DS
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Thank you all for these wonderful (and prompt!) replies. You obviously have a wealth of knowledge and are pretty adept at locating the desired information.
I was aware of the tablet at All Saints. It would appear that the tablet contains more information regarding Potter's relatives than the report provides. I wonder if some kind soul could venture down to the church and transcribe all the words on the tablet and or take a photo and email it to me.
I would be most interested in the Tennant/Low branch. Is the LRO tree online or is there an email address through which I can contact the researcher.
I understand that a yeoman would usually own a considerable acreage and generally would be fairly "well to do". Elizabeth's inheritance probably made her an acceptable match for Henry Potter. The will suggests that Tennant's wife was to receive £12 p.a. until such time as she remarried. Would it be usual to leave the estate to a daughter and not one's wife? In terms of value, how does £12 p.a. seems as an income?
Finally (for now, I suspect), Henry Ashcroft Potter was a man of means and probably inherited his assets. Where did he come from? I have a fairly good handle on his offspring all the way down to my wife (a direct descendant). The tablet in the church provides a clue to his forebears but he seems to have appeared out of nowhere which is quite odd, given his assets.
Any thoughts would be most appreciated and again, thank you all for your wonderful insights.
Regards
Bob Connell
Sydney
Australia
I was aware of the tablet at All Saints. It would appear that the tablet contains more information regarding Potter's relatives than the report provides. I wonder if some kind soul could venture down to the church and transcribe all the words on the tablet and or take a photo and email it to me.
I would be most interested in the Tennant/Low branch. Is the LRO tree online or is there an email address through which I can contact the researcher.
I understand that a yeoman would usually own a considerable acreage and generally would be fairly "well to do". Elizabeth's inheritance probably made her an acceptable match for Henry Potter. The will suggests that Tennant's wife was to receive £12 p.a. until such time as she remarried. Would it be usual to leave the estate to a daughter and not one's wife? In terms of value, how does £12 p.a. seems as an income?
Finally (for now, I suspect), Henry Ashcroft Potter was a man of means and probably inherited his assets. Where did he come from? I have a fairly good handle on his offspring all the way down to my wife (a direct descendant). The tablet in the church provides a clue to his forebears but he seems to have appeared out of nowhere which is quite odd, given his assets.
Any thoughts would be most appreciated and again, thank you all for your wonderful insights.
Regards
Bob Connell
Sydney
Australia
G'day, Bob.
Glad we've been able to help in some way. There is probably more to come.
Childwall Church is not open except for services and casual visitors are unlikely to find anyone there. However, there are members of the church who are there one morning a week for odd jobs and may be there tomorrow. If I can make it I'll have a look. I will be passing quite close and will take my camera, in case.
Your man Potter may have left a will at his death in 1860, and someone may spot this and look for the probate lists online - I don't have that access. Once the date of grant is known, we can point you to how to get a copy - it is cheap!
That £stg 12 in 1791 would be worth £stg 672 in 2005, according to a calculator offered by our National Archives. They have not brought it right up to date.
If you send me a personal message with your email address, I'll scan the map showing the area of Penketh Hall on a couple of maps, to give an idea of its estate.
Daggers
Glad we've been able to help in some way. There is probably more to come.
Childwall Church is not open except for services and casual visitors are unlikely to find anyone there. However, there are members of the church who are there one morning a week for odd jobs and may be there tomorrow. If I can make it I'll have a look. I will be passing quite close and will take my camera, in case.
Your man Potter may have left a will at his death in 1860, and someone may spot this and look for the probate lists online - I don't have that access. Once the date of grant is known, we can point you to how to get a copy - it is cheap!
That £stg 12 in 1791 would be worth £stg 672 in 2005, according to a calculator offered by our National Archives. They have not brought it right up to date.
If you send me a personal message with your email address, I'll scan the map showing the area of Penketh Hall on a couple of maps, to give an idea of its estate.
Daggers
M. no. 31
There do appear to be some Potter family members in the area earlier than your Henry however Childwall's parish registers are only available online up to 1753 (www.lan-opc.org.uk) That is baptisms and marriages only. For anything after that you would need to consult the films of the registers if available. The originals are with the church.
Hilary
5334
5334
I'm surprised, but apparently there was no Will, nothing that matches in the Probate Calendar anyway.
MaryA
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Surprising no will, as he was a "landed proprietor" according to his death certificate. At that time, he was living at 36 Queen St, West Derby.
Interestingly, the informant was C Wainwright.
Wainwright was his mother-in-law's maiden name so possibly the informant was a brother-in-law or similar relative.
Interestingly, the informant was C Wainwright.
Wainwright was his mother-in-law's maiden name so possibly the informant was a brother-in-law or similar relative.
I was lucky to find a keyholder approaching All Saints, Childwall this morning and she was trusting enough to let me in. She knew about two Potter memorials which are flat stones in the main aisle, but nothing about one on a piller.
I looked around, but did not see anything , admittedly in rather dim light which made my feeble camera shots useless.
The two slabs read like this_
1] 19 Jan 1748 Aged 80 Years/ Edward Potter, son of Henry/ Potter departed this life 15th/ Feb 1754 Aged 35 years/ John Potter the Son of Thomas/ Potter and Mary his Wife departed / this life June 9th 1769 Aged two years.
Note that the next stone is incomplete
2] ...of Samuel Potter departed this life/ June 2nd 1773 Aged 33 Years. Thomas/ Potter Junr departed this life November the/ 21st 1775 Aged 6 years and 3 Months/ Edward Potter son of Thomas Potter aged 5 years/ departed this life Dec 24th 1778 Aged 5 years 7 months.
I was told that burials once took place in the church for favoured families and the remains were not cleared away until some time in the 19th century.
I have tried a contact who may know more about the reputed wall memorial, but will have to wait for an answer.
D
I looked around, but did not see anything , admittedly in rather dim light which made my feeble camera shots useless.
The two slabs read like this_
1] 19 Jan 1748 Aged 80 Years/ Edward Potter, son of Henry/ Potter departed this life 15th/ Feb 1754 Aged 35 years/ John Potter the Son of Thomas/ Potter and Mary his Wife departed / this life June 9th 1769 Aged two years.
Note that the next stone is incomplete
2] ...of Samuel Potter departed this life/ June 2nd 1773 Aged 33 Years. Thomas/ Potter Junr departed this life November the/ 21st 1775 Aged 6 years and 3 Months/ Edward Potter son of Thomas Potter aged 5 years/ departed this life Dec 24th 1778 Aged 5 years 7 months.
I was told that burials once took place in the church for favoured families and the remains were not cleared away until some time in the 19th century.
I have tried a contact who may know more about the reputed wall memorial, but will have to wait for an answer.
D
M. no. 31
That was good of you D. Hope Father Christmas rewards you well for your good deed.
MaryA
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Wonderful information. Thank you so much.
This is my interpretation of the transcriptions:
1) 19 Jan 1748 Aged 80 Years
Edward Potter, son of Henry Potter departed this life 15th Feb 1754 Aged 35 years
John Potter the Son of Thomas Potter and Mary his Wife departed this life June 9th 1769 Aged two years.
2] ...of Samuel Potter departed this life June 2nd 1773 Aged 33 Years.
Thomas Potter Junr departed this life November the 21st 1775 Aged 6 years and 3 Months
Edward Potter son of Thomas Potter aged 5 years departed this life Dec 24th 1778 Aged 5 years 7 months.
Am I correct and if so it poses two questions. Who was the first line referring to, and where is the first part of the second inscriptions.
Again, thank you all for taking such interest.
Regards
Bob
This is my interpretation of the transcriptions:
1) 19 Jan 1748 Aged 80 Years
Edward Potter, son of Henry Potter departed this life 15th Feb 1754 Aged 35 years
John Potter the Son of Thomas Potter and Mary his Wife departed this life June 9th 1769 Aged two years.
2] ...of Samuel Potter departed this life June 2nd 1773 Aged 33 Years.
Thomas Potter Junr departed this life November the 21st 1775 Aged 6 years and 3 Months
Edward Potter son of Thomas Potter aged 5 years departed this life Dec 24th 1778 Aged 5 years 7 months.
Am I correct and if so it poses two questions. Who was the first line referring to, and where is the first part of the second inscriptions.
Again, thank you all for taking such interest.
Regards
Bob
Bob
I should have explained that the second slab appeared to have been part of a larger stone, possibly cut down when the remains were removed from the church long ago.
My possible informant has not yet responded, but I'll add that to the queries and re-post when I have news.
The parish registers are not online, as far as I know, but some have been transcribed and printed. They probably have the clues, but I do not have access to them.
Best regards
Daggers
I should have explained that the second slab appeared to have been part of a larger stone, possibly cut down when the remains were removed from the church long ago.
My possible informant has not yet responded, but I'll add that to the queries and re-post when I have news.
The parish registers are not online, as far as I know, but some have been transcribed and printed. They probably have the clues, but I do not have access to them.
Best regards
Daggers
M. no. 31
There do appear to be some Potter family members in the area earlier than your Henry however Childwall's parish registers are only available online up to 1753 (www.lan-opc.org.uk) That is baptisms and marriages only. For anything after that you would need to consult the films of the registers if available. The originals are with the church.
Lancashire Parish Register Society has done some transcriptions
Volume 106 also on Microfiche Baps, burs, and marr 1557 - 1680
Volume 122 also on CD baps, burs and marr 1681 to 1753
After 1753 it's the original registers on film. You may be able to get your local LDS Family History centre to order the film if they have a copy.
lan-opc only has bapotisms and marriages up to 1753
Lancashire Parish Register Society has done some transcriptions
Volume 106 also on Microfiche Baps, burs, and marr 1557 - 1680
Volume 122 also on CD baps, burs and marr 1681 to 1753
After 1753 it's the original registers on film. You may be able to get your local LDS Family History centre to order the film if they have a copy.
lan-opc only has bapotisms and marriages up to 1753
Hilary
5334
5334